In this episode of Stay at the Top, I’m joined again by Dr Hayley D. Quinn, clinical psychologist, author and expert in compassion-focused therapy. We explore the shift from self-neglect to self-compassion and why so many high performers confuse sacrifice with strength. Hayley shares insights from her new book, From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion, along with practical tools to help you move from surviving to genuinely thriving.
If you regularly push through exhaustion, downplay your needs or struggle to create space for yourself, this conversation will help you start changing those patterns.
In this episode Dr Hayley shares:
- Why self-neglect often hides behind achievement and discipline
- The “tricky brain” and how it fuels comparison and self-criticism
- Signs you are surviving instead of thriving
- Simple practices to strengthen awareness and self-compassion
- How compassion supports motivation, accountability and sustainable wellbeing
- What leaders can do to model compassionate, high-performing behaviour
Key Quotes
“Compassion is not weakness. It is courage, wisdom, and a caring commitment.”
“When you protect your wellbeing, you protect your performance.”
“Being compassionate to yourself keeps you accountable in a healthy, sustainable way.”
Episode Resources
Website https://drhayleydquinn.com
Podcast https://drhayleydquinn.com/podcast/
From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion Book drhadrhayleyquinn.com/product/book
Free Resource https://drhayleydquinn.com/resources/
Welcome to Self®: Time to Thrive Group Coaching https://drhayleydquinn.myflodesk.com/timetothrivewaitlist
Instagram https://instagram.com/drhayleydquinn/
LinkedIn Linkedin.com/in/dr-hayley-d-quinn-43386533
Facebook https://facebook.com/drhayleydquinnbrisbane
Jessica Spendlove Website – www.jessicaspendlove.com
Jessica Spendlove Keynotes – JessicaspendloveKeynotes – Jessica Spendlove
The High-Performance Profile Quiz https://jessicaspendlove.com/quiz/
Jess Spendlove Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jess_spendlove_dietitian/?hl=en
Jess Spendlove LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-spendlove-64173bb8/
About Dr Hayley
Dr Hayley D Quinn is a mindset and wellbeing coach, speaker, author and former clinical psychologist. She is host of the popular Welcome to Self® podcast and past president of Compassionate Mind Australia.
Hayley is passionate about burnout prevention and helping women, non-binary and gender-diverse people transform their relationships with themselves and achieve their goals while prioritising sustainable practices, self-care, and compassion. She promotes a new model of sustainable success; one where personal wellbeing is no longer sacrificed.
Hayley draws upon her professional and personal experience of mental illness, domestic violence, solo parenting, business ownership, and burnout and recovery. She blends clinical expertise and science-backed approaches with real-world insights to empower people to transform how they work and live.
Hayley credits a compassionate relationship with herself as fundamental in helping her recover from burnout and create a thriving life that honours her wellbeing. With a blend of empathy, compassion and practical skills, Hayley empowers her clients to embrace their authenticity, align with their values and build thriving lives and businesses that feel meaningful and purposeful.
About Your Host
Jessica Spendlove | Wellbeing Speaker & High Performance Strategist
Jess Spendlove is an international wellbeing and high performance speaker, coach, and advisor. With over 15 years of experience across corporate leadership, elite sport and the military she is known for helping ambitious leaders and teams optimise energy, build resilience, and sustain peak performance.
As one of Australia’s leading performance dietitians and a trusted voice in executive wellbeing, Jess delivers science-backed strategies that empower individuals, teams and organisations to thrive under pressure and achieve long-term success.
Episode Transcript
The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy
Jess Spendlove (00:07.106)
The narrative most high performers have is that one, to get to the top and two, to stay at the top, that it takes hard work and pushing harder, that they need to be tougher, that they need to hold it all together. But here is the really uncomfortable truth, which definitely lands with me. Many of us, while we might be succeeding publicly, we’re slowly eroding our wellbeing privately. And this is what self-neglect looks like and feels like.
That is why today’s conversation matters. What we’re talking about is self-compassion. This is a skill set and it’s grounded in things like wisdom, courage, strength, and a caring commitment to oneself. It’s not softness, it’s not complacency, and this is the real foundation of sustainable success. And gosh, it’s something that I wish I had learned.
Jess Spendlove (01:04.181)
a long time ago. Today I’m joined again by the amazing Dr. Hayley Quinn. She is a mindset and wellbeing coach, a former clinical psychologist, a speaker, and now an author. Hayley hosts the Welcome to Self podcast, previously served as the president of Compassionate Mind Australia, and her new book, From Self-neglect to Self-Compassion, is now available for pre-order.
make sure you check out the show notes for that link. In today’s episode, gosh, we unpack so much goodness. We talk about why so many driven people confuse self-abandonment with resilience, how the tricky brain pushes us towards comparison and threat, and what are the early signs that we might need to look out for that we are surviving rather than thriving.
Most importantly, we get practical. We talk about tips, tools, and tactics that you can use on yourself to tune in and have more self-compassion. We explore tools from compassion-focused therapy, daily check-ins that strengthen self-awareness, and strategies to help you stay ambitious, achieve your goals, but without the burnout.
Jess Spendlove (02:31.968)
Last time Hayley joined me on Stay at the Top, this was a really popular episode and I know you’re absolutely love, you’re going to love today’s conversation, you’re going to love her book and on that note, let’s dive into today’s episode.
Jess Spendlove (00:17.646)
Dr. Hailey Quinn, welcome back to Stay At The Top.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (00:21.49)
thank you so much, Jess. It was a pleasure last time and I’m really grateful to be back again this time.
Jess Spendlove (00:27.084)
I’m thrilled you’re here. I know today’s a significant day for you. Your book…
is officially available for pre-order and you’re also the first guest that I’ve brought back a second time and I know the listeners are going to love today’s discussion because last time our episode that we recorded together was one of the most popular ones that I’ve done to date so the value you have to bring is is just profound and I’m excited that we get to dive into your book so for the listeners Hayley’s book which is now available for pre-order which is called From Self-neglect to Self-Compassion
Hayley, is like, first of all, thank you. It’s such an honest reflection of what so many people experience but rarely talk about and I know this is, you know, not just the work you do but your own personal experience is deeply embedded into this book and everything that you talk about. Why do you think it is that so many of us push through and wear this badge of honour and how do people start to mistake self-neglect for strength and discipline?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (01:32.022)
Yeah, great question. First, can I say thank you to you for actually being one of the first readers of the book and for the beautiful feedback that you gave me. I’m so glad that you enjoyed it and do think it’s going to be helpful for people. think now I’ve forgotten what your question was because I have a tricky mind, right, which I talk about in the book, of course. Why?
Jess Spendlove (01:47.694)
You
Jess Spendlove (01:53.368)
Why do we push through? Why do we wear the badge of honor?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (01:56.264)
Yeah, look, I think we’re kind of conditioned to do that. I think we live in a society that is very driven by capitalism and being productive. And there’s almost an expectation that if we are awake, we should be doing something that is worthwhile to somebody else, really. And I think as women, particularly.
We are socialized from a very, very young age to be in service to another person. So I think there’s lots of factors that then continue to kind of impact that as we get older. But I think it starts really young. I think it’s inherent in the things that we’re taught when we’re young. And I think there’s a lot of societal messages that have us feeling like our worth is based on our work and our productivity.
Jess Spendlove (02:48.385)
Yes, that lands and resonates hard.
I know we’ve shared before, but I remember when COVID hit and all of my sports team contracts got significantly reduced by 60%, even though the norm in terms of budgets getting slashed with 30. And then I was getting asked to still go in the bubble and travel full time. And I’m like, so how does this work? And seeing how I felt in the conversation around COVID when I decided to either pause or significantly reduce or step out of this,
It was all focused on those specific teams and it really made me go, goodness, my whole identity for the last 10 years has been caught up in this and it required a lot of like deep work. I know another thing that you talk about a lot is how so many people are surviving and not thriving. And obviously if someone experiences burnout or it’s quite severe, it’s quite obvious, but that doesn’t just happen overnight.
and signals and there are indicators that someone might be on this path and they’re living in a state of survival as opposed to thriving. What does that look like? know, surviving rather than thriving, what does that look like in practice?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (04:06.773)
Yeah, look, I think that’s a great question because a lot of people can look like they’ve got it all and it’s all going great and perhaps they’re getting the promotions or they’re getting the contracts or the things that they’re striving for, they’re achieving. And I know for me, prior to my burnout, had done well, I’d originally dropped out of school, but when I did go to university, I did very well. I was getting academic achievement awards. I did my bachelor, I went on to do a PhD.
I’d met somebody and had got married and I was raising my son, I was working, I was doing all the things. And I think what can happen is from the outside, things look great. People have got, you know, what we see as those status symbols, rightly or wrongly. People are achieving well in their workplace, but then inside, it’s a very different story.
It might be that things look great and glossy on the outside, but people are really struggling internally or feeling unhappy with things they might be achieving well, but it’s really not the life that they’re wanting. So I think there’s lots of different ways, but I generally tend to see that it looks like that external success and maybe people are saying, my gosh, your life looks amazing. You’re doing really well, all those sort of things, but internally the person is.
feeling either disconnected from that or generally unhappy with how things are or, as it was for me, slowly health-wise deteriorating physically and mentally.
Jess Spendlove (05:45.368)
Right?
Again, as I mentioned at the start, and I don’t want to overshare your story because I know that is part of the book, but whatever you are happy to share it and is relevant here. know, reading, like you said, you know, on paper, I was achieving all of these external metrics. And then behind the scenes, navigating some very tough, you know, personal circumstances and having the courage to step out, which was, you I know you shared in the book more of
decision for your your son rather than yourself but then over time obviously you start you started to see how it was for both of you.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (06:24.797)
Yeah, absolutely. I was in a very unhealthy relationship. Unfortunately, it was overshadowed by domestic violence and I did make the choice to leave. And I know that’s a very complex topic and it’s not easy for women to do that. But I was in a position where I was able to and it was for the well-being of my son in the beginning because I didn’t have the relationship with myself that I have now.
part of me thought I deserved that relationship, but I knew that my son didn’t deserve that environment. So I moved out of that and then from there, kind of more and more changes happened. And thankfully the relationship with myself changed a lot and I became far more compassionate and started making decisions in my life that were healthy and helpful and values aligned.
Jess Spendlove (07:12.767)
And that’s really gone on to lead and influence the work you’ve done over the last, I believe, nine or 10 years as a clinical psychologist. And now this new chapter, being an author and bringing this book, which is so much of your own personal and professional experience over your entire career and journey. And really importantly, coming from a space of someone who has
deep qualifications in this space. Like not only are you a clinical trained psychologist, but you have done a PhD in this space. This is coming from somebody who really understands the importance of doing this work but in a safe environment.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (08:00.981)
Yeah, yeah, so I’d been a clinical psychologist. My career as a psychologist was just shy of about 18 years. I think prior to that, I’d done counselling. So all in all, it was probably like a span of 30 years. And I say that, like, how could I possibly have a career of 30 years? But I do. So I’d been a clinical psychologist and left that at the end of last year, as you know, and had been…
Jess Spendlove (08:08.968)
sorry,
Dr Hayley D Quinn (08:30.877)
then kind of working with people coaching other business owners so that they could run businesses in a way that was honoring their own wellbeing. And that started off that it was other psychologists and other allied health professionals, but then also expanded to other women in business. And yeah, I think what I enjoy for myself about the work that I do and my writing and the coaching work I do is that
I have the grounding in the qualification, like you say. I also have the lived experience. And I think the combination of two is really powerful. think lived experience is really important, but it can’t be the only thing we’ve got because it’s almost like a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. So I think having that background in psychology, even though I’m no longer a registered psychologist,
really helps me navigate and keep the spaces that I work within safe spaces in the true sense of the word.
Jess Spendlove (09:38.286)
Yes, I know we do have conversations and are seeing a bit of a movement on, like you said, lived experience and a little bit of knowledge. And we’re obviously in an environment now where information is readily available, whether that’s podcasts, whether that’s chat GPT. And there’s nearly this little bit of a rise of people sharing methodologies and
statements on like you just said the safe space which is actually very critically important psychological safety at an individual level at a team at an organizational level from people who have the training in there rather than just throwing around terms willy-nilly and yeah I know that’s something we do talk about and and like I said we’re seeing this this shift or rise in this happening and it is really important to call out here your your training and your background as
pinning the tools and the practices and the meditations and everything that’s gone into this book.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (10:42.119)
Yeah and I think you know it’s wonderful that more conversations are being had about well-being and it’s important that we are seeking our information from people who are qualified to give it.
Jess Spendlove (10:55.127)
Yeah. Let’s circle back more into the book. You kind of mentioned a little bit at the start, the tricky brain, I think you call it. So can you give us a description of what the tricky brain is?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (11:09.757)
Yeah, so a lot of a lot of the stuff in the book is based on my learning from compassion focused therapy that I was really fortunate to learn when I was a psychologist. I did a lot of training in that and then I trained other health professionals as well. And in that, Paul Gilbert talks about the tricky brain. We have a brain that we didn’t design. We have a brain that was designed for us, not by us. And when we think about it and all the things that our mind can do, like
catastrophizing and ruminating over worry and getting caught in loops of things that we did three years ago and still thinking about we possibly wouldn’t choose a brain that was designed this way. So it’s really important that we acknowledge there’s lots of things that we do because of the tricky brain tricky mind that we have.
Jess Spendlove (11:59.49)
And then guess, you know, thinking about that, and I guess you said like it’s from a evolutionary perspective that we are wired like this, but I guess…
What are the strategies or tools or the antidote to knowing this, but then helping rewire or have strategies where we can catch some of these, you know, maybe not helpful, maybe the self criticism or the comparison and then redirect that.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (12:30.301)
Yeah, well, I think with the self criticism that can very much be a kind of learned thing and varies with people depending on their own kind of early life experiences and upbringings. So some, some people may have a very robust self critic. I certainly did. And other people don’t struggle with that as much, but I think most of us can relate in some way to having that inner critic that shows up.
probably when we least want it to or need it to. So that can be very learned and how we’re socialized. And then the comparison is really something that is quite inbuilt in us. And we tend to go with kind of upward comparison that we’ll look and see how are we doing compared to people that are doing better than us. People don’t tend to spend their time thinking about how am I going compared to people who are not doing as well as me.
And the reality is there are always going to be people who are doing better than you, and there are always going to be people who are not doing as well as you. So the exercise of comparison is quite futile. Now, one of the things we can do in general is get to know ourselves and really understand that we have this tricky mind. So I think that’s the first thing is understanding what it actually means to be human with a tricky mind so that we can recognise it when the tricky mind’s at play.
and noticing perhaps when we’re being very self-critical. And the antidote to that, in my opinion, and the opinion of compassionate focused therapy would be to cultivate a compassionate mind so that we develop this compassionate relationship with ourselves. And that’s something that’s been absolutely life-changing for me, both professionally and personally. And then I think with the comparison is
allowing us again to recognise that we’re doing it. And then maybe asking ourselves, okay, so I’m seeing Jess doing all these wonderful things on Instagram and I start to feel like, maybe I should be doing all those things that Jess is doing on Instagram. And then stopping and asking myself, well, actually, is this aligned with my values? Is what Jess is doing actually what I want to be doing for my life? Or is it something
Dr Hayley D Quinn (14:57.023)
Do I want to be doing something else? Because sometimes I think, particularly with social media, and particularly given that social media tends to be a lot of highlight reels, we can get caught up thinking that we should be following what other people are doing, or doing things a particular way because we’ve seen other people succeed doing it that way. But other people’s ways don’t always suit who we are and the type of brain we might have, or the type of lifestyle we might want.
Jess Spendlove (15:28.084)
And is there a particular, I don’t know, tip or tool or reflection? Because I know that the book is really, I guess, a manual. And I don’t know if you use that word or I’ve used that word, I think a little bit of both, but it really, I think, you know, is designed to pick it up and regardless of like, definitely front to back cover kind of situation, but even if you pick it up and, you know, read one of the four main areas, like there’s so many tools throughout and I guess thinking specifically about this and I have to say that
the comparison or comparisonitis is something which…
Like it hits me and when I feel myself comparing to people, social media is always the catalyst and I need to really reframe or manage my time or sometimes mute accounts and it’s sometimes not even about the person, it’s how it’s helping, like how it’s making me feel but this is an awareness that I’ve guess cultivated. So yeah, I don’t know if you have one, it’s probably like, I don’t know, choosing your favorite flag.
when you love a thousand flowers but is there a particular tool or reflection that might help someone to kind of give them a process around this?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (16:35.482)
Yeah
Dr Hayley D Quinn (16:43.061)
Well, think what you were saying, it’s about awareness. You notice that you’re on social media and perhaps you start feeling a bit like, I haven’t done that thing. you start just, it can be physical. You might just start to feel heavier in your body or you might start having thoughts of like, I haven’t got there yet or I haven’t done that yet. And I think having that awareness to be able to notice that this doesn’t feel good.
and then either, like you say, mute the accounts or spend some time off social media and really coming back and checking in with yourself. What is important and meaningful to me? And if I were to be trying to do that thing, would that fit with what I’m wanting? What I’ve done with the book, because for me, it’s been a journey of getting to know myself, understanding my human brain, understanding Hayley as a unique individual.
learning new strategies, learning how to do things differently, and then practicing them and actually taking action because we can read all the books in the world, but if we don’t do anything different, nothing’s going to change, right? So as you know, there are lots of reflective questions throughout the book. And I’ve done that really intentionally, as well as the guided meditations so that people can really engage and immerse in the book.
And I honestly believe that if you start reading the book and you get through to the end, I can’t see how you can’t make some change in your life. Like something is going to be different, whether that’s a new awareness or a way of treating yourself differently or doing things differently in a context.
Jess Spendlove (18:24.012)
And I do want to spend some more time talking about compassion-focused therapy, but a thought has just popped to mind and I do want to share it because when you, and correct me the exact milestone, it was the podcast, sorry, you have just recorded a few weeks ago when this episode goes live, 100 podcast episodes. You know, the book, there’s a lot of exciting things happening and you’re a big believer in celebrating the milestones, which I completely agree, know, like we need to acknowledge
the small and big milestones but on that day you were feeling a little bit depleted and so rather than forcing the celebration even on this significant milestone you were embodying what you teach so this is not a lip service situation this is a deep embodiment of lived personal and professional experience
Dr Hayley D Quinn (19:21.543)
Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And trust me, I had the pull to like, you should do a post on Instagram, because that’s what we’re meant to do, right? Share the things on Instagram. So I had this pull to, well, you should probably record a reel and put something on Instagram because you’re celebrating 100 and it’s today and tomorrow it won’t be the day that you did 100 episodes. And then I kind of paid attention to what was going on and I’m like, that’s ridiculous. What I want to do is just rest and be quiet.
and have a little mini celebration myself, which literally involved sitting on the couch, wrapped in a blanket, eating some Loco Love chocolate. Because that’s what I needed. And had I gone on to social media and done all the recording the thing and posting it, it would have been performative. It would have been because I thought I should do it.
and I wouldn’t have actually attended to myself. And for me, that is self-neglect because your body and your mind are telling you one thing and you bypass it and you do what you think you should do. Or you people please, or you just ignore how you’re feeling. So those moments are really important for me and I appreciate you noticing it and mentioning it. And I did have people reach out to me thanking me for…
being transparent about the fact that I wasn’t going to do that.
Jess Spendlove (20:48.64)
And maybe for someone who, and I don’t know if it’s different for each person, but the question that comes to mind there is, is there a difference in that voice? Like if you don’t know yourself, how do you differentiate the shoulds? Is it like where it’s showing up in the body, like the head versus the gut? Or is it more just the language around it? Like obviously I know you have a deep practice on meditation and checking in with yourself, but for someone maybe newer to this work
thinking I would really like to know myself how do I do that like differentiation have you got any points there?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (21:25.385)
I think again, it’s getting curious and checking in with yourself. I was talking on another podcast earlier and talking about the process for me. I had a very, very toxic relationship with myself and I didn’t pay a lot of attention to myself unless I was berating myself. And I was saying for me, it was like, okay, I’m gonna, I want to get to know myself and I want to change this.
So I’m going to try and get to know myself the way I would if I’d met somebody new, if I was meeting a new friend. And if I was meeting somebody new, I would ask them questions, I would listen to what they were saying, I would perhaps get a bit more curious about a particular answer, and it would go on like that. So that’s what I did for myself, and I encourage people to do that. It’s like, when you’re saying yes to something, take a moment to think about how it feels in your body.
If you’re offered an opportunity and you think about saying yes, does it make you want to exhale or inhale? Do you immediately feel stressed because you’ve just said yes to something or resentment or like, why did I just say yes, I don’t really want to do it. Or do you actually feel comfortable with that decision? Also think about your tone of voice. Like if we’re
connecting, you if we cultivate a compassionate self, and we’re connecting to that, this is gonna be a warm, friendly voice tone. It’s not gonna be like, okay, well, you don’t feel like celebrating. So just go sit on the couch then. I’d be like, hang on a minute. It sounds like there’s a bit of judgment. And this is not very nice, where I’m speaking to myself. So I think paying attention to how you’re feeling in your body, what sort of voice tone you might be using internally with yourself.
But it’s those things for me where I come back to saying to people, you’ve got to get to know yourself. There’s not a recipe or prescription that you can follow. There’s some guidelines that we can work with, but ultimately we’ve got to understand ourselves because whilst we are very similar as human beings, we also have our own differences. And what works for me might not work for somebody else. So certainly in the book, I sort of say, you know, this isn’t a prescription. Like take what’s helpful, leave the rest on the pages.
Jess Spendlove (23:51.264)
Yeah, fantastic. I’m sure there’s a lot of myths and misconceptions about self-compassion and compassion-focused therapy, particularly probably in driven, high-performing people. Can you share maybe what one or a few of those are?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (24:09.801)
Yeah, look, I think some people think that, you know, if they’re going to be more compassionate, it’s kind of like letting yourself off the hook, or that you’re not going to be as motivated as you might be. It’s all a bit soft and maybe a bit weak. And I come back to the definition of compassion, and I use the definition that Paul Gilbert came up with, which is compassion is a sensitivity to suffering in self and others.
with a commitment to alleviate or prevent further suffering. Now, we need to understand that at the core of compassion is wisdom, strength and courage and a caring commitment. There’s nothing weak about that. Asking somebody to face their own suffering and struggles and take action to do something about it is not weak. And it’s not always about, well, I’m just gonna rest or I need to take a break or…
I’m just going to be gentle with myself. Sometimes it might be, I mean, I’ll use an example. I have my podcast and I do weekly episodes and sometimes I get a little bit behind and I might not want to do the episode. Now I check in with myself and I’m thinking, okay, well, the compassionate thing is to actually sit down and do the thing I don’t want to do right now because otherwise next week,
I want to be really stressed because I haven’t got an episode. So that’s just like a simple example of something. But it could be that you have to face doing something hard so that you’re not causing more suffering in the future, whether that’s to yourself or someone else. We also know that compassion is a far greater motivator than self-criticism. I think that can be a fear for people is if I let go of that inner critic.
then I’ll start failing, I’ll become lazy, I won’t achieve the things I want to achieve. But in my experience for myself, working with other people and what the research is telling us, that’s just not true. We’re more likely to take action, we’re more likely to try harder if we’re compassionate to ourselves.
Jess Spendlove (26:30.059)
So interesting, it’s yeah, just like you said, it’s kind of the opposite to how we’re wired to think. Out of interest, how much of that is us operating out of our threat system and how does that feed into our ability to have compassion for ourselves?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (26:51.893)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we’re when we’re being critical, we know that when we’re in our threat system, we become hostile to ourselves and others. So if you’re noticing there’s a lot of self criticism, it’s good to kind of check the okay, what is it that’s activating my threat system right now? What am I afraid of? Is it that I’m going to not get the position that I’m applying for? Or is it that I’m not going to be able to achieve this thing that I want to do?
but get curious about what is it that’s actually activating my threat system? And then what do I need to be able to calm my threat system so that I can feel more grounded and access my wisdom? Because when we’re in threat, we’re not as creative. We are very narrow focused. mean, basically the threat system’s designed to just keep us safe. So whatever is happening, the behavior from the threat system, the motivation is gonna be
do something to stop this feeling and get safe, which might not actually be what you want for the thing you’re trying to do. Whereas if we can actually ground our nervous system, recognise and acknowledge what’s happening, ground our nervous system, take care of ourself in a way we need to, and that could be different for different people. For somebody it might be, I know for me it’s kind of hand on heart, soothing rhythm breathing, activate the parasympathetic nervous system.
For somebody else, it might be, need to just go out and go for a run. I can’t ever imagine that would be me, but there you go. We’re all different. So understanding what you need to be able to come back to a place where you feel more grounded and you can access a calm and wise mind. I have a colleague, Deborah Lee, who does a lot of work in compassion focused therapy for trauma. And she has this beautiful, very simple phrase, calm minds think differently.
And it’s such a good reminder that we can be more creative, we can brainstorm, we can problem solve better when we are grounded in our nervous system.
Jess Spendlove (28:58.602)
And what if there’s super acute as in something that’s obvious, whether that’s, I don’t know, a personal or professional, a health related trigger? What if it is a culmination of micro-chronic stresses and that is a harder piece to identify? Or I guess again, it’s not something you could just say, oh well on average, because everybody is an individual, but I’m just thinking the modern world…
the chronics I know for myself there definitely was it was like nearly death by a thousand paper cuts with my burnout and so I do feel like I don’t know maybe I was just so in that state it would have been hard for me to drop in and find that
Dr Hayley D Quinn (29:46.846)
Yeah, absolutely. I think you make a really good point because I think for a lot of people, I don’t know if it’s the majority of people, but I’d say it’s a large number of people. That is how they get to that state. It doesn’t tend to be one thing and then all of sudden you’re in burnout. This can be decades of the way we’re engaging in the world, the systems we’re within. So I never want to minimize the systemic problems that we have and we know there are plenty of them in the world.
and certain workplaces have more than others. But this can go on for a long time. And I was a highly qualified psychologist and I ended up in significant burnout, so much so that I had to finish working with my clients, leave where I was working and start all over again after recovery. So I know there can be a lot of shame that shows up for people when they get to this point, but this can be like like say,
death by a thousand paper cuts or very, very kind of slow burn. And I think this is why I’m so passionate about burnout prevention, because I don’t want to see people ending up in burnout. It’s harder to recover from burnout than it is to prevent burnout. It takes a lot more time, money and energy to recover from burnout than it does to prevent it. So if we can get into these practices, if we can understand ourselves, if we can understand the environments we’re in,
and we can get clear on what it is that we need and ask for that in certain circumstances. Sometimes we can give those things to ourselves, but other times we have to ask for that from somebody else, which doesn’t mean you’re always going to get it either. And there can be hard choices for people sometimes about whether they want to stay within environments, whether that’s relationships or workplaces or whatever it might be, whether they want to stay in those because they are.
harmful and don’t necessarily mean really overtly harmful, but harmful nonetheless, or if they want to make those changes. So I think if we can start to incorporate these practices for everybody, we can hopefully get to a point where we don’t end up in a place where it’s going to take a lot more to recover. But if somebody is absolutely
Dr Hayley D Quinn (32:12.913)
in that space already, you’re right, it is really hard to stop and think, okay, well, I’ll just be a bit nicer to myself, or I’ll do some breathing, or I’ll check in because you can be absolutely depleted. And I think when we’re talking about that level, you really need to get support, you need to be seeing your GP, you need to be accessing other perhaps allied health professionals, you need to be looking at all levels of your wellbeing.
hydration, nutrition, everything. And sometimes the confronting thing is you have to stop what you’re doing to recover because we can’t work our way out of burnout. We can’t just work harder and hope that it’s gonna go away. And then after recovery, it’s really about learning to do it differently so we don’t then go back into doing things the way we were doing them because, spoiler alert, you end up.
in the same place, yeah.
Jess Spendlove (33:14.098)
Exactly, even if you change your environment but you haven’t changed your behaviours, it’s… Which one is it? Is it the chicken or the egg? Look, it’s probably a little bit of both but… Yeah, really is fundamentally important and you can’t put a timeline on it. You can’t go, I’m giving myself two weeks.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (33:35.574)
Well, the reality is that if you end up in full burnout, it could take weeks, months or years. And there’s research suggesting that some of the signs of burnout will still be there like four years later. So we don’t want to get to burnout. I mean, my passion is burnout prevention. We really want to work with prevention. And I know in the work you do with people, it really is about getting in first, isn’t it? And setting yourself up so that these things don’t happen.
And that’s not to say we do this perfectly. I mean, I am well-practiced in this. I’ve done a lot of learning in this. I’ve done a lot of teaching to other people in this. This is my passion area. And of course I have days where I do too much or I don’t remember to check in or this isn’t about perfection. This is about having practices in your life that you can keep coming back to. And when you forget, you’re compassionate to yourself.
Jess Spendlove (34:29.449)
100%.
It is, it’s, gosh, we’re so like, we’re so, we’re such complex individuals. I think the tricky brain is the perfect terminology and summary and that self awareness piece is so critical. If you, if I am a leader, cause I do have people who lead teams or organizations or maybe they just, you know, lead their family or life. But if leaders want to model self compassion without losing accountability or standards, what would you say to
that person.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (35:03.871)
Well, it’s hard sometimes to give it just in a very short answer, but I’d say.
Being compassionate to yourself will help you stay accountable and it will help you maintain the standards you want in a way that you’re going to take care of yourself. And I think what we do when we have this compassionate relationship with ourselves and we can behave in ways that are compassionate when we are not just by ourselves, we’re role modeling to other people as well. And I know I could…
Speak from my experience, I have so many people.
comment to me how helpful it is to see me treat myself the way I do and make some of the decisions I make that perhaps go against what you should just push through.
So I think there can be a fear there that actually if you start to bring this into your workplace, you can be surprised that actually people appreciate it rather than not. And I think it’s important as well that we remember the three flows of compassion. So often people are very good at, certainly the people I work with, very good at.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (36:27.505)
expressing compassion and flowing compassion out to other people. The self-compassion and the receiving compassion from others can be tricky. But in some workplaces, I think developing that compassionate relationship with yourself can actually enhance the compassion that you have for other people. And I’ve worked with people in leadership positions.
where they have tricky relationships dealing with staff, they’re having to manage staff and run meetings and things. And when you can actually bring compassion for yourself and others in that room, it can make things a lot clearer on what’s gonna be helpful to move things forward. And again, remembering that the core of compassion is wisdom, strength and courage, and a caring commitment.
So who doesn’t want that in a leader?
Jess Spendlove (37:22.185)
core characteristics and what you would want your leader embodying. that courage, strength, wisdom, caring commitment. And I mean, as you answered that question, what I was hearing is when a leader walks the talk, everybody else benefits around them.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (37:28.019)
Yeah.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (37:31.966)
and a caring commitment.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (37:44.757)
Absolutely.
Jess Spendlove (37:46.632)
You know, that’s really aligned with, I guess, the work that I teach and I know our practices and philosophies are really aligned in the way that we, I guess, holistically help people manage their wellbeing. Which again is why, you know, the comment before around just really making sure that the people guiding these conversations are underpinned by the right training and the background because this is not fluff.
This is not just let’s get a six pack or you know let’s run a marathon I mean look if they speak to you but this is about whole body well-being for your current self your future self your physical your mental your spiritual your emotional this is important work I’ve actually just changed my website tagline
a few weeks ago with this and it’s now make well-being or turn well-being into your performance and leadership edge.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (38:54.389)
Absolutely. And I think, you know, one of the things you’re sort of speaking to, it’s important that we have the grounding and the training for this. I see a lot of this on social media where people talk about self-critic. And again, it’s great people are starting to talk about it, but then they’ll say, so when they show up, when that, when that inner little bitch shows up, slam the door in her face. And I’m like, whoa, no, that is a part of you.
That is a part of you. And if the way you are gonna handle yourself, critic, is to be hostile, then you’re not connected with your compassionate self because your compassionate self will never be hostile. And then what you’re missing is the piece around, why did that part of me show up? It’s because my threat system’s been activated.
So if I don’t get curious about why my threat system is activated, and I’m not saying you have to sit and ponder this for half a day or start journaling or anything, or take loads of time to do this, but if you just completely ignore that, again, that’s self neglect.
So when we get a little bit pop psychology, throwing around, just slam the door on yourself, critic, or just do this, or like you say, just train for a marathon before you actually get yourself prepared to do that.
Jess Spendlove (40:20.243)
when I don’t like running or you know.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (40:21.905)
Yeah, exactly. I will not be doing a marathon. Although it did end to my night the other day and I was like, whoa, what’s happening? Probably. So I think we do have to be careful and we want to do this in a way that is not harmful to any part of us and is also sustainable.
Jess Spendlove (40:27.369)
Running Poacher
Jess Spendlove (40:46.919)
of my favorite word and I should say look this is nothing against anybody training for a marathon. I commend you but the point and using that as an example and I think it’s front of mind because I had a client recently and we were having this exact conversation she’s a like a CEO of a medium-sized business and she gave me this example herself and we had a little chuckle but it’s true it’s it’s it’s we just need
to have the dialogue with our true self and really check in on why we’re doing what we’re doing.
Haley, I’ve absolutely loved this conversation and I guess as we get towards the end, what I would love to do is a quick fire, rapid fire, lot of questions, and just to get the kind of first thing that comes to mind and being science trained, I know we can kind of overthink these answers, but let’s not, we’re not being too literal, we’re just being whatever first thing comes to mind.
And so my first question to you is, what is one belief that you would like people to retire?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (42:05.353)
that other people’s needs matter more than theirs.
Jess Spendlove (42:09.481)
Love that. Put yourself first. I’ve been talking about the oxygen mask in principle and it’s like the paradox of that is when you prioritize yourself first, everybody else benefits around you anyway.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (42:22.057)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Jess Spendlove (42:24.233)
What would be one habit to protect?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (42:28.723)
daily check-in with yourself.
Jess Spendlove (42:31.485)
love that in any way shape or form.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (42:33.641)
Yes.
Jess Spendlove (42:36.221)
And one practice that this is, guess more specifically, one practice that keeps you grounded.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (42:44.597)
checking in with my 80 year old self.
She’s very wise, very wise old woman. yeah, that keeps me connected to my values and keeps things in perspective. Because I ask myself, is this going to matter in a week, a month, a year when I’m 80? So that one’s a great one for me.
Jess Spendlove (43:06.727)
I think you shared that one last time, it’s worth, no, it’s worth reiterating the impact and importance of it. And I was on a panel a few weeks ago, Build Your High Performance Operating System, and they had, the panel was amazing. It was one of those like, my gosh, how am even on this panel with these people? Not in an imposter way, but just, you know, when you sit there and you’re just in awe of the brilliance that people contribute.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (43:29.365)
because you’re amazing.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (43:34.229)
Mm.
Jess Spendlove (43:36.603)
But someone was talking about that as a reframe as well and thinking about their future selves and is this a decision that they would support? Yeah. I’ve found since having Milly, it’s put a lot more things into perspective and I’m thinking about things that I’ve never thought about before or a lot more regularly.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (43:48.595)
Yeah, so important.
Jess Spendlove (44:03.24)
So that’s really been a shift for me in this space. Hayley, is there anything that we haven’t mentioned that you wanted to share about the book? Obviously, we’ve got links in the show notes. The pre-order is now available to sign up to to get the copy. What is the exact date the book is launching?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (44:23.487)
So pre-orders open on the 18th of November. was going to, yeah, sorry today. I was going to bring it out for Christmas, but made a decision not to do that. it’s going to be, publication date will be the 5th of February. So just in time for everybody, kids back to school. In time for Valentine’s Day, where you can focus on actually.
Jess Spendlove (44:25.67)
Yep. So today…
Dr Hayley D Quinn (44:50.485)
the most important relationship in your life is you. So really nice way of doing some work for yourself and changing that relationship with yourself because I really do think that’s fundamental to so many things in life.
Jess Spendlove (45:05.8)
100%. And I know that you’re doing more speaking as well. So where can people find out more information about that if they’d like you to speak to their associations or teams or organizations or conferences?
Dr Hayley D Quinn (45:21.565)
Yeah, I love talking about this love coming and talking to other people. So my website is Dr. Haley D Quinn calm there’s information on there. I’m on all the socials under Dr. Haley D Quinn always happy for people to reach out or at hello at Dr. Haley D Quinn as well.
Jess Spendlove (45:41.755)
All of that will be in the show notes. Once again, this has been such an enjoyable conversation, something which, yes, your future self will thank you for, but your current self will find the tools, find the tactics, find the guidance to put some of these practices on board because I’m sure it’s one of those areas which, if you’re doing work
in this space, know, can you dive deeper and if you’re not there’s probably so much to unravel and it’s definitely something I’ll be revisiting quite a few times. And I think the important thing is that nothing is static. It’s not, we don’t learn it and then it’s all good but being aware of when that inner critic…
comes up or the inner talk which is not necessarily conducive to or not compassionate.
Dr Hayley D Quinn (46:44.405)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, our lives change as we change, we want different decisions and you know, there’s a section in the book where I talk about where did your dreams go? Like, and this can happen throughout life, right? So I think it’s a good opportunity for people to get to know themselves better and really have a think about how they want to be living their life. And then hopefully there’s some good ways you can practice that within the book as well.
Jess Spendlove (47:11.816)
Perfect.
Thank you once again, Hayley, for joining us on Stay at the Top. Everyone make sure you follow Hayley if you haven’t already from the last time she was with us. Get those pre-orders in and otherwise I just want to thank you again for tuning in to another episode of Stay at the Top. All of this is about tips, tools and tactics that help you live a sustainable, high-performance life and everything Hayley’s touched on here today is definitely a key part of that.
Thank you for tuning in and on that note I’ll be back again next week with a solo episode helping you not only reach the top but sustainably stay there. I’ll see you all then.