In this episode of Stay at the Top, I am joined by wellbeing and performance specialist Phil Wolffe, founder of Kinex Health. Phil has spent over 15 years helping organisations build cultures that actually support human performance. His philosophy is simple: wellbeing is a skill set, and when you upskill people and leaders, performance takes care of itself.
We explore the biggest shifts happening in workplace wellbeing, why traditional EAP models are falling short, and what is required to create sustainable performance from the individual to the organisational level.
Whether you are a leader, founder, or someone who cares deeply about their health and performance, this episode will challenge how you think about wellbeing at work and what it takes to make it stick.
In this episode Phil shares:
- Why wellbeing must be viewed as a skill, not a perk
- The biggest shift happening in workplace wellbeing right now
- Why organisations need to focus on systems, not one-off events
- The hierarchy of wellbeing: sleep, movement, nutrition
- Why movement is the strongest predictor of longevity
- The role of energy as the currency of life
- How small behaviours compound into long-term performance
- The problem with traditional EAP models
- Practical ways leaders can support wellbeing at scale
- Why perfectionism is one of the biggest wellbeing barriers
- The case for proactive, not reactive wellbeing
Key Quotes
“Anything is better than nothing. One minute is better than zero.”
“Energy is the currency of life. Everything is easier when you know how to create and spend it wisely.”
“Wellbeing is a skill set. It can be learned, applied and mastered.”
Episode Resources
Website – https://kinexhealth.com.au/
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/philwolffe/
Jessica Spendlove Website – www.jessicaspendlove.com
Jessica Spendlove Keynotes – JessicaspendloveKeynotes – Jessica Spendlove
The High-Performance Profile Quiz https://jessicaspendlove.com/quiz/
Jess Spendlove Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jess_spendlove_dietitian/
Jess Spendlove LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-spendlove-64173bb8/
About Your Host
Jessica Spendlove | Wellbeing Speaker & High Performance Strategist
Jess Spendlove is an international wellbeing and high performance speaker, coach, and advisor. With over 15 years of experience across corporate leadership, elite sport and the military she is known for helping ambitious leaders and teams optimise energy, build resilience, and sustain peak performance.
As one of Australia’s leading performance dietitians and a trusted voice in executive wellbeing, Jess delivers science-backed strategies that empower individuals, teams and organisations to thrive under pressure and achieve long-term success.
Episode Transcript
The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy
Jess Spendlove (00:12.642)
Today, we are cutting through the noise to focus on what actually drives sustainable performance at work and in life.
Joining me on a very aligned philosophy is Phil Wolf. Now, Phil is the Director of Kinect’s Health and he’s a workplace wellness expert. In today’s episode, we start with a conversation around the state of workplace wellbeing. And given Phil is spending every single day in this world, what is working, what is not, and how is this evolving? We also then look at practical strategies for the individual and we touch on
why sleep is the foundation, movement is the biggest longevity lever and how nutrition is the daily accelerator. We also unpack energy and why this is so multi-dimensional and how everyone listening can balance their requirements with their resources so they can perform without burning out.
We’ll dig into why recovery is a skill, not a luxury and how you can embed it in your week so it works for you. We’ll take a bit of a look at proactive organisational models and how these are replacing and need to replace reactive support and also how hybrid work changes the and how hybrid work does or does not change the equation. As you listen to this great, as you listen to this episode, I’d encourage you
reflect on your own life and think about what’s working for you and what might need a tweak or an upgrade as we head into the very final sprint of the year.
Jess Spendlove (01:58.39)
There’s so much goodness in today’s episode. So on that note, let’s dive into it.
Jess Spendlove (00:18.242)
Phil Wolf, welcome to Stay At The Top.
Phil (00:22.108)
Thanks, Jess. Glad to be here.
Jess Spendlove (00:24.322)
Yeah, thrilled to finally bring this episode to life. We’ve been in the messages on LinkedIn talking about it for a while and I guess going and having a baby slows that down. So now that I’m back, it’s really great to chat with someone who’s so philosophically aligned and does similar work, but then also does it in a different way as well from the way that you service a variety of organisations across industries.
different sizes and it’ll be great to hear what you’re seeing and also get the rundown on what is actually working. So yeah, I thought a great place for us to start would be when you look at the state of workplace wellbeing right now, what is working and what is not.
Phil (01:16.348)
Yeah, I mean, that’s a really good question because it changes all the time. Like I’ve been doing this for 15 years back when it was called corporate health. And it was just about injuries and a lot of data collecting. It’s thankfully evolved from that. And we’re seeing a shift at the moment. And it’s funny, I was actually just writing a piece for a great place to work literally last week on this. We’re seeing a shift away from
It’s because of market conditions, like no one has got extra money, like individuals, organizations, no one has extra money. So we really got to focus on the stuff that provides value. So we’re seeing a shift away from initiatives, like we’re seeing less in-person lunch and learns, we’re seeing less exercise classes, less workshops, that sort of thing. And we’re seeing organizations investing more in their systems. So the things that they’re already doing.
So upskilling their leaders, upskilling their people, improving their meeting policies, improving their physical environment, like the stuff that they already have and the stuff that their people are already doing. How do they upgrade those to make sure that they’re first of all, not causing harm and second of all, if possible, and it’s almost always possible, enhance wellbeing. So that’s probably the biggest thing at the moment. Cause you go back, you go back even six, 12,
18, certainly 24 months ago, it was all about what can we do? That’s extra. Who can we, who can we bring in to run this and who can we do this with? And I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. It’s like those initiatives are great. We sell a bunch of them. So I’ll never say that they’re bad things, but we’re seeing a shift away from that and into how can we improve what we’re already doing, which yeah, that’s just, that’s the way things go. And when things are tight, that’s exactly what you should be doing. So.
Yeah, that’s a big shift, I would say.
Jess Spendlove (03:15.478)
I love that. It really speaks to something I saw in professional sport and I guess again my own.
strategy on coming into these roles which were very small, know, in that space I was nutrition and I guess they have the experts in the different fields and I guess it’s evolved more now with the work that I do and it sits more broadly and more holistically but I really quickly learned in that environment when you are a half day or a full day and unfortunately I was able to evolve those roles but the biggest needle mover
is systems and policy and that’s actually how you influence the environment and when the environment and the organization as a whole is has these structures and boundaries and yeah philosophies and boundaries in place to help the individual well that that is really
A, I believe it’s the biggest needle mover, but B, when time and energy and finances are lower or we have to be more conservative, then that’s where we can shift our focus. I guess I’d like to start with the individual. I do really want to move through like all of the different levels and talk about the EAP programs that you run and get your insights into everything from the individual to the organisation level.
But I’d love to kind of give the listeners from a get-go like where can they focus their time? Because understanding maybe not everyone listening is in control of putting these things in place. in your mind thinking about the individual, what are non-negotiables that they should own when it comes to their own wellbeing?
Phil (05:02.682)
Yeah, that’s a, it’s a really, really good question. And we deal with this a lot and we deal with it. A lot of people will think, and a lot of people will say, I don’t have time for it. I don’t have time to do this thing that you’re saying, or my life is so hectic that I can’t exercise or I can’t get extra sleep or I can’t do this and I can’t do that. Now I definitely don’t subscribe to that.
I know that things are a lot more difficult for people in a lot of circumstances. That is absolutely true. But there’s never, there’s never a time that you can’t do it. There might be a time where you have to scale it back, or there might be a time where you have to really adjust your approach, but there’s always something that can be done. And when we say that I can’t do this or that’s impossible, or I won’t be able to do that, then we’re
essentially admitting defeat before we even get started. that’s something I want to get across. Something is always possible and anything, like literally anything, is better than nothing. So having one green bean at dinner is better than no green beans and doing one minute of exercise is better than no minutes of exercise. Half a glass of water is better than no glass of water. Something is always better than nothing. So for individuals, I think
understanding that we have agency, we have agency over our lives and we can impact our health for the better if we know how to and if we choose to actually take action on it. And that is really skill based. And that’s what I think that’s what we don’t really look at health and well being as, a set of skills that we can learn. Any skill can learn any skill can be mastered any skill can be applied. So if we look at it in terms of it’s skill based,
then that gives us back that agency. So in terms of non-negotiables, we can always do them. That just might be a scaled back version. And in my opinion, in the hierarchy of health, it goes sleep, movement, nutrition, three things underneath that. And in that order, for me at least. So first and foremost, looking at your sleep and getting that right. Because if you’re not getting sleep right, your entire life is going to be immeasurably harder.
Phil (07:29.444)
And if you do get it right. And I was just running a session last week actually for an organization on sleep. and there were a lot of new parents in there and there are times when you can’t optimize your sleep. It’s just, that’s just the nature of it. I mean, you know, yourself with Millie, can, it will let you sleep when you want to sleep, but you can optimize around that. There’s always something that you can do to improve it. so sleep is without question the foundation.
of health and wellbeing. Next is movement. So finding some way to move your body. And that doesn’t mean that you’re going to spend an hour and a half in the gym every day. It means doing some sort of movement that’s meaningful and that’s going to work for you. So if you are a new parent, maybe it’s just increasing your steps. Maybe it’s doing a couple of minutes of yoga or stretching or doing some squats or whatever the case may be. Something, building a foundation.
movement and then looking at nutrition. In the hierarchy for me again it’s are you getting the right nutrients and then how we’re balancing those calories and then everything else timing and are you doing intermittent fasting and all the rest of it but first of all those nutrients so yeah for me I mean there’s a million different things that we can do there’s literally infinite things we can do but it’s sleep, movement, nutrition.
everything else under that. So focus on that before you start buying the mushroom drops from Byron Bay and before you start worrying about should I be fasting and should I not be fasting? Just get this stuff right first and then worry about the rest.
Jess Spendlove (09:11.342)
the red light therapy or the IV drips or the bits and paces. I love…
Phil (09:14.574)
Exactly. Exactly. And they’re good. They’re good. But yeah, they’re not your first quarter call. They’re the 1%.
Jess Spendlove (09:21.506)
When you dialed in and you’ve got the, you I love the same major in the majors, you know, they are the majors, they are the big rocks and I agree with you there.
on them being those three key or three of the key big rocks, the one I also talk about, which is an extension of sleep is recovery. But still in terms of the order that I would then put it in, it would be a similar kind of combination to those top three. I love the call out that it’s a skill set.
the way I think about it. And I see this and this is my observation and I’m less kind of in this world than you are and I’d love to know the conversations that go on, but I just see big money getting spent on leadership and communication.
know, leadership teams, emerging leaders, all of these. And I would love to know, and I don’t know if there’s a stat out there, but I would love to know, relatively to that, how much is then getting spent on well-being, because I really see that as the foundation for the performance and leadership capacity. And these are just skill sets, but you know, it’s, it’s, I don’t think it’s viewed in the same light. And I don’t think it’s seen as something that is that foundation of those things.
I’d love to know your thoughts on that observation.
Phil (10:40.698)
No, you’re absolutely right. And we’re starting to reframe this more as professional development because it absolutely is. It’s more personal development, but it has a professional context. So what we do and the way that we approach it is we upskill people. So upskill individuals, upskill leaders, upskill teams on how they can improve their wellbeing. And that’s in practical sense. So really at the core of it, how do they get more energy and how do they spend it more wisely?
because that’s everything. Energy is the currency of life. It’s what we pay for life with. And we hit that really hard. you’ll always get, whenever you say something like that, you always get a smart ass and they go, I tried to take energy to my bank, but they weren’t accepting for my mortgage payment. Try and get that money without energy. I’ll give you all my money, you give me all my energy, and I bet I can make more money than you won’t be able to make more energy.
So that’s really what it comes down to. Do we have the skills? Do we have the knowledge to reliably and sustainably create energy so that we can spend it wisely? And that goes back to exactly what we said about recovery. So can we work hard and then can we recover adequately so that we can work hard again? And do our leaders understand that? Do we understand that as individuals and do leaders understand how to facilitate that for their teams? Is it that do?
Everything else just gets so, so much easier. People don’t burn out. People do perform at a high level. People can keep performing at a high level sustainably. So we are seeing that shift that people are starting to understand this a bit more and starting to understand that wellbeing is a skill set and you can learn those skills. And if you’re a leader, in my opinion, this is one of the most important things that you can do, one of the most important things that you can understand.
how to facilitate them for your teams, how to help them get that energy reliably. So that’s not a conceptual thing. That’s a series of practical steps that you can actually take in order to do that. Yeah, and you can learn that. We teach that. That’s where our energy goes into teaching people how to get more of their energy. So yeah.
Phil (13:04.048)
I suppose to answer your question, apart from my long-winded tangent there, yes, we are seeing a shift. It’s happening slowly. But yeah, it is definitely happening.
Jess Spendlove (13:16.44)
Yeah, fantastic. you know, again, like energy is a key theme in the work that I do, because exactly like you’ve said, it is the currency of life, human energy, is the thing AI will never replicate, it is the thing that is completely created, optimized and sustained by a series of daily habits. And I think that’s another shift which…
Hopefully is getting out there. I see a lot of discussion and I believe in this I really believe in the energy order what gives me energy what takes me energy But I really see that mainly coming from a lens of like tasks and people in your life and that kind of thing Whereas I think what we’re both talking about here is people understanding that you don’t either have energy
or you don’t have it or you don’t, it’s something that you create with these series of habits. And the other thing which is really great to hear that you’re doing such important work with these organizations and leaders in the recovery space. And I really do fundamentally believe as well that this is the next big thing that’s coming to the corporate world because when I look at…
You know, my work in the military with the special forces and the elite athletes. This is the thing the corporate world is missing and really coming at it from a proactive lens. But also we need people in organizations or consulting to organizations that understand physiology. I don’t know about you, but I’m seeing a shift in like business coaches and just kind of leadership. I’m seeing a shift where a lot of people are starting to talk about this. And I always think, you know, great, like if we’re getting this
message out and it’s resonating with people and people in positions to help people but do we actually know what it is and are we giving them the tools that have that impact? And so I’d love to hear from you, know, if you can share maybe one or two key ways that you’re finding your work with leaders or organizations or individuals in this recovery space because as we said recovery is where this renewable energy actually really happens. What are you seeing there?
Phil (15:27.088)
Yeah, most definitely. And I think probably the most important thing to get across, there’s two things. So first and foremost, it’s understanding that there are different types of energy. So energy is not just one thing. We look at it in five different spheres. So physical energy, literally how much energy you have in your body. How ready do you feel to do something difficult physically? Cognitive energy, how sharp you are, your memory, your decision-making, all of that.
your emotional energy. So not necessarily how happy you are, but how in control of your emotions you are. Your social energy and everyone has a wildly different social energy battery and they fill up differently. I’m actually quite introverted. I’m an introverted people person. So I love people and I love talking to them. love being with them. love running workshops and all that sort of thing. But that is an energy cost for me.
It’s a big energy cost and that needs to be replaced and understanding that is key to making sure that you never run out and also spiritual energy or AKA purpose. So do you have something that’s driving you? Do you have something that you’re actually working for? Because if you don’t, your energy is going to run lower than other people who do. We know that from the data. know that entrepreneurs, athletes, people with a serious
purpose and a drive have a protective factor against burnout. So understanding, teaching people the different types of energy and teaching them how to recognize when theirs is running low and how to top that up. That’s first and foremost. And second of all, something we talk a lot about, it’s our requirements versus resources. And everything in life is a balance of that. So our requirements is everything that we have to do. It’s our responsibilities, it’s our work, it’s
it’s communication, it’s tying our shoes, it’s traveling to work, looking after kids, all of that. Resources is everything that we have in order to deal with that. So it’s our energy, our focus, our knowledge, our skills, our hardware, it’s AI, it’s our families, it’s our coworkers, all of it. And we tend to become overwhelmed when the requirements of a situation or the requirements of our life are…
Phil (17:53.181)
excessively greater than the resources that we have to deal with. Now, in the short term, if the requirements are a bit higher than our resources, that’s where we grow, that’s where we learn, that’s where we perform at a high level because we have to. If we stay there, then our resources start to shrink because our resources are our energy and our focus and our patience and our capacity. And we can’t redline all the time, our resources are going to shrink. understanding there’s different types of energy.
and understanding how we get that and understanding how we grow our resources in relation to our requirements. That’s the basis of it because everyone’s going to do this differently and it shouldn’t be, we shouldn’t have to rely on a person like me to come in and go, you should sleep at this time. You should do this type of exercise. You have to eat that type of food because that is very, very labor intensive and it’s not going to work. Instead, we teach people those concepts.
and then people figure out everything else around that. And those concepts are not hard. It just takes a little bit of a mental shift to understand that and then to start working on the actions that will help us to actually do that. So in my mind, those are the two most important things. And that’s what we teach rather than teaching the minutia and teaching the logistics of how to do it. We teach you why to do it, why you would do it.
and the broad strokes and then you fill in the blanks yourself. It’s a lot more sustainable, a lot more effective. Yeah, that’s the two most important things in my mind for sure.
Jess Spendlove (19:32.687)
I’ve seen you.
talk about the requirements and resources many times before on LinkedIn posts. And I think it’s a fantastic way to simplify a very complex, very multifaceted area. Yeah, I think it’s right. And you’ve touched on, you know, probably both of our favorite words, sustainable. you know, I think we’re very aligned on a philosophy of sustainable high performance and potentially, you know, the how to that is a lot of what we’ve just discussed, but I’d love to get in your
words, know, an understanding of this approach and why you see it resonating with individuals, teams and organisations at the moment.
Phil (20:14.14)
Sustainability is what we’re after. So how much can I get done right now? It’s how much can I get done in a year, in 10 years, in a career? So that’s what it’s really about. And I think we have to readjust what our expectations of high performance are because high performance changes not only from person to person, but from day to day, from project to project. What’s high performance one day might be
different for the next day. So in my mind, it’s a lot more, you’re to get a lot more output if you can perform 80 % capacity forever, rather than 100 % capacity for now. And then maybe 90 % later and 80 % later and 70 % later and eventually you burn out. So that’s what sustainable high performance is, finding the level that you can
sustain over a long period of time. And the way that we do that is by finding the things that give us that energy and then improving our performance. So it’s not just about effort, it’s about how we actually achieve the output that we’re getting. There’s a graphic that I have in my head and it’s 100 % effort gives you 100 % result.
And then over time, 100 % effort gives you 95 results and then 90 and 80, 70 and 60. You’re still putting in 100 % effort that you’re getting diminishing returns on your results. Whereas 80 % effort is going to give you 20 % results. And if you can maintain that 80 % effort, it keeps giving you 80 % results. And over time, if 100 % is required of you, you’ve got that room to move. And if it’s not required of you,
you produce 80%. That’s what sustainable performance is. Not buying your absolute artist every single day, finding the level that you can maintain over a long period of time because you understand that your output is going to be higher in the long term. That’s what it is. you would know, elite sports teams understand this. They understand periodization. You can’t go your hardest all the time. You’re not going to produce
Phil (22:39.566)
well when you absolutely need to. So yeah, that’s what it is to me.
Jess Spendlove (22:47.576)
Yeah, fantastic. And look, this is a concept which when you’re actually putting it into your life, it takes some testing and some trialing and even before when you were talking about like a win is one green vegetable, a win is half a glass of water. Why do you think people don’t see them as wins straight away that people do want this?
big grand gesture or outcome and while it takes them a bit of time to kind of come around to this understanding that.
when you’re operating at 80 % and you’re eating one green vegetable extra a day, like the compounding results that this gives you actually in the long run, A, gives you the capacity to dial up if you need to, but B, this is the actual kind of solution or methodology to sustaining all of the things you wanna do in work, but more importantly in life.
Phil (23:48.657)
Yeah. Well, we, we want instant results because we get them in so many things and we get that instant gratification. Like it’s getting worse and worse for Thor because we’re used to instant gratification. So when something doesn’t work straight away, we feel like it’s not working. So you are never going to see the benefits of one day of good eating or one workout or one of
anything in terms of health and well-being, you’re going to see the benefit of a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand. That’s really, really hard to see that benefit upfront. And people think people think that they can’t get it done right. Then they might as well not do it at all. And that is, I think that’s probably the thing that’s holding most people back in their health and well-being, not understanding that anything is better than nothing. So
This mentality, mean, this hopefully, I think people will understand this. You wake up late, you plan to do a 45 minute jog in the morning, you wake up 10 minutes late and you won’t get the 45 minute jog in saying, ah, nevermind, I’ll try again tomorrow because I can’t do it right. So I’ll try again later. I might as well not do it at all. Whereas a 35 minute jog would be better than nothing.
a 25 minute job, a 15 minute, a 10 minute, a five minute, one minute, anything would be better than nothing. So what we have in our heads is this ideal. And if we can’t do the idea, we might as well not do it at all. But what we found to be probably the most useful thing in terms of habit change is having your ideal up here and having a non-negotiable down here. So a version of that habit or behavior or action that is so simple that you can’t not.
deal with. So if it’s a 45 minute jog in the morning, that’s your ideal. Your non-negotiable might be put your shoes on and walk out the door. If you do that, then you can tip that action off for the day. You’ve completed it. And anything between putting your shoes on and a 45 minute jog is success because you’ve achieved your action down here. Now we’re just talking about degree. To what degree did you achieve your action?
Phil (26:12.58)
And we, when we’re building an exercise habit, this is one thing that I always tell people. Start with 10 squats. So 10 squats should be your non-negotiable. Cause when we look at what exercise actually is, exercise is something that’s regular, something that’s strenuous above the normal activities of daily living. And it’s something that’s planned. 10 squats is all of those three things. So if you can get up and do 10 squats in the morning, every morning,
You’re now someone who exercises every single day. And from a mindset perspective, that’s a really powerful thing because that’s not something that a lot of people can say. I exercise every single morning, but if you do 10 squats, you could say that. And now we’re just talking about to what degree do you exercise every day? So understanding that anything is better than nothing and perfection does not exist and is not useful in health and wellbeing. Perfectionism is just another form of procrastination. You don’t need to get it perfect.
You just need to get it done. Make it good enough because if you can, you can set up enough, good enough, you’ve got something really, really great. Don’t avoid it just because it’s not right or perfect. Let’s get it done. Even if it’s ugly, even if it’s a tiny little thing, just get it done. I promise it’ll stack up. It stacks up over time.
Jess Spendlove (27:34.393)
Yeah, completely. I definitely talk about you having a list of these non-negotiables for your busiest, most hectic, crazy day or season of life. And then if you want to have that stretch kind of list as well, but…
don’t just, which so many motivated driven people do, let’s reference the absolute best thing that we’ve ever done, which was probably 20 years ago before we had children or whatever that might be. And that becomes our kind of baseline because we haven’t set up the anchor points or the non-negotiables that give us the win, that give us the momentum to then leverage off the back of that. you know, as you were talking there about the exercise piece, it was making me think.
kind of linking back to something you were talking about before around sleep and how a lot of people meet it with.
resistance because of the phase of life and you know sleep is a huge pillar in my work and in my own life and honestly it’s probably like it might sound dramatic but it was I actually was thinking I put off having children for a while because of it because I’m like it’s it’s so incredibly important to me to my physical and mental well-being and all of the stories and and look I can say it’s definitely not I don’t have a miracle baby that’s sleeping through the night but it it’s really made me even refine
my own process on you know if I want seven or eight hours sleep I need to be in bed probably for nine or ten is that realistic how can I make that happen so I’m still getting it and I could tell you eight hours of unbroken sleep does not match eight hours of straight sleep but eight hours of unbroken versus six hours of unbroken I am a more functioning human and so you know I think I love doing these talks now being in this new season of life because I’m like look this isn’t a competition but my own experience what I’m
Jess Spendlove (29:23.984)
and feeling and you know one of the tips I really like to give people is well let’s not have the wake up alarm which we’re snoozing and we’re missing the 45 minute run or the 10 squats let’s actually have the go to bed alarm so we go to bed at closer to a time that we want and then we set our alarm when we actually get up and so much of this is just I guess it’s not rocket science but it’s strategies and understandings to help people kind of get out of their own way because you know but the end of the day we’re cognitively draped
We’re probably trying to relax. We’re watching Netflix. We’re really into the new season of whatever and we’re getting sucked into that next episode. So, you know, I really just hope with these kind of conversations that…
It’s calling some behaviours out which people might be hearing or seeing within themselves and it’s giving them a little tool or a tactic as an individual. But of course, if you’re a team or an organisation, you know, reaching out to Phil and his business because they’re obviously doing some really incredible work. I’d love to spend a bit more time now, I guess, talking at this organisation level and the programs that you run. We were having a quick chat before offline and it’s
that there’s obviously a multitude. know that you also on the website, like it’s bespoke wellbeing programs for businesses. So there’s an element of tailoring to what they need. And I know you’ve also been really kind of vocal about replacing outdated models that are not working. Why do you think…
Why do you think, I guess, how things have been working, haven’t been creating the change that organizations are looking for and now why things are shifting and evolving?
Phil (31:08.668)
Yeah, it goes back to what we were talking about before. Things are shifting and evolving because they happen because budgets are tight. There’s not the money. It’s supposed that everyone wants. It’s kind of like, it’s kind of like autophagy in the body. If there’s an abundance of energy, you can keep cells alive that you probably shouldn’t keep alive. If there’s not an abundance of energy, those cells of the body needs to make some hard choices. And it’s the same thing with budgets and organizations. So that’s
That’s the necessity piece. They know that well-being is important. People are looking for it now. That’s been, I think, one of the main, probably one of the biggest silver linings from COVID is that people really started to focus on their health and well-being and mental and physical well-being. it became, I it’s always been important. People understood more that it was really important when they’re asking for it from employers. So their employers know that it’s a necessity.
but they have to get back for their blood. So a lot of these things that haven’t been working are now starting to get print. And one of those things, now, I always have to be a bit careful how I say this because we do get a bit of backlash from this, but EAP, Employee Assistance Programs, as they have traditionally been presented and run, I think they’re ineffective.
And it’s not that I just think they’re ineffective. The data shows us that they are ineffective. The engagement levels are incredibly low. They’re reactive by their very design. They’re almost invisible in organizations. And people aren’t getting the value from them. The individual isn’t, and the organization isn’t. Organizations are terrified of not having an EAP because if you don’t have one, and there’s psychosocial safety
hazards that exist or people need it and they don’t have anywhere to go from a compliance standpoint, that is, that’s a real problem. You have a real problem now. So people have their EAP as the safety net, but a lot of organizations are using that safety net as their strategy. They go, well, in terms of mental health programs, we have an EAP. So there you go. Just call the number and I’ll sort you out. You’ll be right.
Phil (33:32.369)
But we know that the number of people that are experiencing mental health distress is about 10 times as many as a calling AAP. And the people who are calling AAP are not, they’re not feeding back that it’s really working for them because you’re calling and it might be two, three, four, five, six, seven. We’ve heard up to eight weeks before people get a call back and either it’s not a problem anymore or it’s a much bigger problem after eight weeks.
When you do get that call back, you’re getting a call from the next available stranger. They don’t know you. They don’t know your industry. They don’t know your workplace. They might not even know the Australian work context. It’s, mean, yeah, we could, we could go further and further into why I don’t think it’s a great system. But suffice it to say, those are, those are my big points. And I’m not bagging on the service or the idea.
of providing mental health support for employees. I think that absolutely is critical. I’m just saying that it needs to be done in a better way. It needs to be more proactive. It needs to be more holistic. It needs to actually offer the support when it’s needed. We cannot be calling people back even after one week. I think that’s a crazy amount of time to spend not getting the support that you’re after. It has to be
essentially immediate within a couple of days at most. And that reactive by design element really gets to me because you would know yourself how important prevention is. So why aren’t we putting more resources into helping people avoid these crises, into helping people to maintain or improve or optimize their health and wellbeing rather than just trying to catch them when they fall?
It’s, it’s the difference between, if it’s between having a safety net for a trapeze artist and getting them a better trapeze or teaching them how to use it better or making sure their partner is on point, giving them the strength and the skills and the agility to actually use it, have the safety net 100%. But let’s make sure they don’t fall or let’s put more resources into making sure that out for so the difference between doing that and having.
Phil (35:58.993)
this reactive, outdated program and having something that’s a lot more data, a lot more proactive, a lot more holistic and a lot more effective. The difference is not big and it’s not hard to do. When we created that, we call it the well-being enrichment program. When we created that, I was stopped that something like this didn’t already exist. And this has been born over
the last 15 years of interacting with organizations and the different services we offer. And all of that has come together. And I think this is what we were always supposed to do. We should have been doing this from the start, we had to, yeah, we had to have those years and those thousands of interactions and all of this to finally get to this end product. But it’s not hard to do. It’s honestly not hard. It’s not expensive. And it works.
So yeah, this is what I want organizations to do to take a much more proactive and holistic view of wellbeing and upskill people and create those systems so that they don’t need that reactive safety net that’s not bloody working anyway. And that’s what I want. And also, I want this to be the template. So I know that other companies are going to copy this. Good. I hope they do. I hope.
All EAP companies look at what we’re doing and they go, shit, that’s a idea. Let’s steal it. Yes, steal it. Do it. Take it. Use that as the template because this is the way that it should be done. I know that we’re not going to be the only ones doing it. We’re the first ones doing it and we’ll be fine. Like the market is big enough. It’s Change your template. Do things this way because this is the way things should be done. And if in the future that changes, cool, we’ll change with it.
Yeah, be more proactive, be more holistic. Actually make an impact. Don’t use an outdated EAP as your mental health strategies. It sucks. It doesn’t get away. It’s not that hard. Let’s do it.
Jess Spendlove (38:13.016)
Can you talk to, I don’t know whether you’ve got a case study in mind or some of the results that you’ve seen, but can you talk to what this shift and music to my ears again, like this, can we just get out of the proactive, sorry, can we get out of the reactive, just everything and shift into a proactive state? And it is not, whether it’s at an individual team, organisational level, exactly like you’ve said, it doesn’t require,
why it doesn’t require as much resources, time, energy, money, whatever it might be, is what people kind of make it out to be. It’s just a roadmap and a strategy for. But yeah, I’d love to know maybe, like I said, a case study or some metrics that you’re seeing. And what should organizations actually be looking at to kind of get a feel for whether they know something’s working or not?
Phil (39:04.668)
That’s a great question. How do you know if it’s actually working? We encourage every organization to look at really three things, which are the bar data metrics for is this working and is this saving or making us money? Absenteeism, workers’ compensation, turnover. Those three things, can draw a direct line to are they more or are they less? Are they costing us more or are they costing us less? Those are our lagging measures.
Those are gonna start to show at the six, yeah, maybe six months, certainly 12 months, 18 months, 24 months. Those are our lag measures. Now, our leading measures are stress levels going down, our health behaviors improving, is teamwork improving, collaboration, are people reporting better mental health, are they reporting better physical health, are reporting better sleep, better exercise, all of those things.
So we can measure those really quickly and easily. That’s survey-based, anonymous survey-based. And if all of those things are improving, we know that these things are going to improve down the line. So what I’ll be focusing on are the skills, the health behaviors, first and foremost, and then everything works in a chain reaction. Everything starts to improve, and then that improves your outcome, your lagging income measures that we can draw direct ROI from.
And that’s none of that is difficult to do. That’s all. That’s all really, really simple. A case study. I won’t say I didn’t get that permission to say their name, so I won’t. But they’re one of our favorite organizations to work with. I was saying to you before, we’ve paused our marketing campaign to focus on getting things right for our clients. And we haven’t needed a marketing campaign because these guys are our marketing campaign.
They tell everyone about us. I was in a pitch meeting with a number of HR, heads of HR in the care sector down south the other week. And I barely needed to say anything. This organization was present. They were the reason we were in the room. And they spruced us so hard that I just basically said, I’m going to go. That’s cool. got to keep talking. So what I saw when we came in.
Phil (41:32.127)
was the EAP, they were running at about three and a half percent uptake for the year, being charged a lot more than that because you get a lot of them you get charged upfront. And that’s why they say it’s unlimited, because they know you’re not going to use it. And that’s why they’re disincentivized to engage you because every hour of support they provide is now eating into their profit margin. Because in the account that they just know you’re not going to use it. So they’re running at about three and a half percent uptake.
annually. They’re now running at about 10 or 11 % uptake monthly. So they’ve tripled their engagement, their annual engagement every month. Workers’ compensation has gone down. Now that’s, I wasn’t expecting it so soon, but it did happen. We’re now looking at absenteeism. Don’t know yet. Turnover has gone down, which is great.
And we’re currently running a survey to assess the other metrics, stress, health behaviors, mental and physical health and all that sort of stuff. But the thing that I get the most satisfaction from is hearing the individual stories. When people email and say,
I’m now doing this or I stopped doing this or this has changed or that’s changed or I’m feeling better or I applied this to my partner or my kids or someone or whatever the case may be hearing those individual stories is it’s awesome. Like it, just makes me so happy. I love that. That’s why we do this. And the way I can tell that it’s working is every chance they get, they spread this to anyone that will, that will listen.
Yeah, I don’t know. I love it. I just I love this work. I get to show up every day and I get to do cool shit all the time. It helps people say, yeah, we’re talking about spiritual energy and purpose. When all my other energy is running low. I tell you what that yeah, that really really helps that pushes me through that’s for sure.
Jess Spendlove (43:43.033)
the flow state, you know, in action and you’re exactly right. When companies or individuals or whoever it is, when they’re spruiking you, A, it’s so much kind of nicer than doing it yourself, but it’s so much more meaningful as well.
And you know, at the end of the day, you know, what’s the saying? A healthy person has a thousand goals and unhealthy person has one. And I love to kind of come back to that because it’s so true. Like we could think about, you know, when we all had COVID, that one thing we wanted, even when it’s that time of year and it’s flu season, like think how much.
You know, we just want to be healthy. We want to be doing all of the things, let alone however many years down the track when all of these little small miniature…
habits then compound over time and then determine your chronic disease risk or what your cognitive abilities are going to be like in later life. not only are you going to feel the impact now as an individual, not only is your workplace going to be higher performing, be healthier, be happier, be more present, but this is the stuff that matters both now and down the track. And I guess the last question I had on this before I wanted to move into our kind of rapid fire and unfortunately,
this conversation up because it’s going so amazing and I could just pick your brain all day but how is this changing and whether this is from your delivery or what you’re seeing in workplaces in the hybrid working environment and are you seeing it’s either more conducive to the programs you’re running or it’s presenting more of a problem or it’s a non-issue regardless of what that workplace and workforce is made up of.
Phil (45:31.74)
It’s such a tough one because every industry is different, every workplace is different.
think what we’ve got to look at is what works for your organization and for your group. What’s going to help them to be, first of all, safe, productive, my God, what’s the third word that I’m looking for, prosperous. So safety first, always. Psychosocially, physically, safety always has to come first. Next is productivity. So is it good for the company? And prosperity, is it good for the person?
And I think that last point gets missed a lot of the time. The company looks at what is best for the company or what they think is best for the company, and they miss what’s best for the person. So those mandates of everyone back in the office five days a week. It hasn’t been happening for the last five years. Now all of a sudden, get yourself back to the office. And we have to look at, does that work? Does that make sense?
Is that the best thing or are we just doing it because it’s a global directive or are we just doing it because we’re paying the rent on this huge building that no one’s even using? So it changes organization to organization, context to context, person to person, whether that’s going to be better or worse or harder or easier in terms of wellbeing. So if I could say one thing, it would be for organizations to look at, does this work?
in our context and how does it work in our context and how do we make it work in our context? So are people safe? Are they productive? Are they prosperous? And for some people that’s going to work from home every day. For other people, it’s going to mean the hybrid scenario. For other people, it’s going to be in the office every day. There’s no one blanket answer. But to answer the question of does it make it harder or easier? Neither and both. It just
Phil (47:31.97)
adds layers of complexity. And if we address that complexity, then, yeah, it works. It’s like anything. Anything can make it harder or easier. We just have to address that level of complexity, and it’s just something else to consider. So yeah, not harder or easier. Just different.
Jess Spendlove (47:52.355)
Yeah, perfect. I mean, it really just comes down to why well-being at any level, individual team organisation, is not a one size fits all. And like you said, it’s really customising and tailoring to the context.
Phil (48:00.635)
Yeah.
Jess Spendlove (48:04.526)
of that situation. I’d love to wrap up with a few quick questions, more rapid fire, so you know, a couple of words to kind of answer them. And then of course, where people can obviously get in touch with you and explore these amazing programs that you and your business have on offer.
If you had one wellbeing myth that you wish would disappear or you could dispel, what is that or what would that be?
Phil (48:37.084)
Oh my God. One well-being myth. It’s that.
Jess Spendlove (48:38.206)
Hahaha
Phil (48:50.844)
Okay, it’s that you’re born healthier, unhealthy. Now, people are born, some people are born healthier than others. We all have the capacity and the agency to impact our health and wellbeing in a positive way. So looking at someone and going, oh my God, they’re so lucky they’re healthy. That person probably has better habits than you do. I think that’s, yeah, the wellbeing myth that we’re stuck in our health and wellbeing because of our genetics or the way we were born. In most…
Jess Spendlove (49:18.872)
Perfect. Yeah, like you said, it’s that much smaller percentage than the daily decisions, the lifestyle, the habits, et cetera, that feeds into that equation. The next two questions, I mean, obviously prefacing like we’ve just said, there’s no one size fits all. It’s tailored to the person, their lifestyle, their situation, et cetera. But.
Phil (49:20.005)
Almost all cases are true.
Jess Spendlove (49:42.154)
All of that, I guess, aside in terms of your observations or where you want to, I guess, put a flag in the ground and have a position on something. If there was one thing that you would love for people to start doing, what would that one thing be?
Phil (50:00.302)
I move movement without question movement. It’s the foundation of everything. So sleep is the most important thing to health and well-being, but movement and exercise in every longevity measure that we have, exercise is the key component. So whether you want to judge by grip strength, whether you want to judge by minutes of exercise per week, whether it’s quadriceps strength, whatever those measures are, longevity depends
Mostly on how well we move. So start moving, start exercising, start where you need to start small, start with 10 squats. Doesn’t matter. Start somewhere and move. Everyone must exercise. If you want to live a high quality long life, you’ve got to move. There’s no two ways about it. And exercise doesn’t have to be in the gym. can be dancing or rock climbing or swimming or kayaking or anything. Clap your hands real loud for 10 minutes a day. That’s going to get you working.
move somehow, someway to it.
Jess Spendlove (51:01.858)
dance in your kitchen, crank the Spotify and get moving. This statement I wanted to make came into my mind before and I thought, no, keep your polarizing opinions to yourself, but you’ve just brought it up. So I’m just gonna throw it in here because why not? This is my podcast. I think it’s interesting and I’m all for it again, anything preventative and anything that’s getting people more aware, but my personal observation of this longevity movement is we now have doctors basically
Phil (51:04.56)
Yeah.
Phil (51:14.287)
Okay.
Phil (51:19.014)
See you.
Jess Spendlove (51:31.778)
prescribing and recommending essentially what exercise physiologists and dieticians and allied health professionals are trained to do and are recommending. And again, I’m all for it because it’s preventative, it’s going to give people longer health spans and quality of life. But ultimately, in its most simplistic form, obviously with testing and data and biometrics, which is obviously a medical component, but at its core, this longevity movement is
nutrition and exercise and sleep and these big rocks which you opened the episode on and talking about how we can optimise them now for not just the now but the future us as well.
Jess Spendlove (52:17.038)
Okay, we’ve said one thing to start, the flip side of that, what is one thing you would love people to stop doing?
Phil (52:26.746)
love people to stop doing. I suppose…
jeez, that’s a really, really tough one. There’s a million things flying through my head about it. I think being so hard on themselves, so not giving themselves a break, thinking that they need to be perfect. think the, actually, that is my answer. The feeling that things need to be perfect. They cannot be. We can’t look perfect. We can’t have the perfect routine. We can’t have the perfect health behaviors. Perfection is killing us.
Don’t try and be perfect. I am be the best that you can be right now with what you have available to you. Good enough is good enough. Don’t try and be perfect. think that even in our fruits and vegetables, the search for perfection means that so much is wasted. So much. So many apples are thrown out because they don’t look like the perfect apple. So no, why that this relentless drive for perfection is crippling us. And I wish people would stop doing that.
That’s my one thing.
Jess Spendlove (53:37.871)
that’s a great one to call out. The last question I ask all my guests because anyone I have on here is you know an expert in their field they’re doing a lot of things I mean you’re running a business you’re working with a lot of organizations and you you figured out over time what works for you and the essentials so I’d absolutely love to know what three things whether they’re behaviors habits
Any and all of the above help Phil Wolf stay at the top.
Phil (54:09.818)
Yeah, I have a solid answer to this. So first one is slim. I do not compromise on sleep. I need, well, my perfect is seven hours and 35 minutes sleep per night. So I don’t compromise on that. I exercise every day. That keeps me, that keeps my brain working. Honestly, it keeps my patience, patience long. keeps me focused. It’s my rock. And I stop for lunch.
Jess Spendlove (54:12.169)
You
Phil (54:39.662)
Every single day, I do not work through lunch, like minimum half an hour, usually an hour, hour and 20, to stop, refresh, recharge, chill out, watch a show, read a book, go for a walk. But every single day I stop for lunch. And if I don’t, I feel it. I definitely feel it. My performance goes down. So sleep, stopping for lunch. I mean, there’s a million other things that I do.
And being the person I’m a freaking health nerd. So when we’re talking about optimization, I do all those things. cause I love it. It’s fun. And it’s interesting to me, but that’s the absolute basis. That’s what keeps me, that’s what keeps me going.
Jess Spendlove (55:26.454)
And you need to be clear on that. And I hear you there. It’s having that clarity. It’s optimizing when you can and you’re in a position to, guess it comes back to that point at the top, major in the majors. And every one of those is in a way, or form, sleep, exercise. And that last one’s actually a nutrition and recovery kind of combined. So I love that. Phil, I absolutely love this conversation. I’m sure a lot of other people have as well. So if people wanna get more into your…
world, where is the best place for them to connect and follow along?
Phil (56:01.884)
I’ve placed it LinkedIn for sure. Phil Wolf on LinkedIn. I’m on there most days, certainly every week. And you can understand what I do, how I think, how I do the things that I do without ever having to talk to me or before talking to me. So following along on LinkedIn and reaching out through LinkedIn, I will definitely get your message. Or our website, connectshealth.com.au.
You can reach out through there. LinkedIn is, yeah, that’s the answer. You gotta get everything through that.
Jess Spendlove (56:39.672)
Gosh, I love LinkedIn. I’ve only kind of come to it a little bit later. I’d say the last 12, 18 months and it is by far my favourite platform in terms of meeting people like yourself, showcasing thoughts and ideas and yeah, it’s a winner.
So everyone make sure you head over and follow Phil if you’re already not, but maybe a lot of you already are. He does a lot of great things on there and he is a top voice. So he is a voice to be around in this space. Phil, thank you so much for joining me. I’m grateful for your time, insights, expertise. Thank you for those tuning in for another episode of Stay At The Top. I know you love the guest episodes and having amazing experts like Phil on here sharing his wealth of knowledge.
is a great privilege. So if you haven’t already subscribed, I’d love for you to do that so you don’t miss an episode when it comes out. If you haven’t rated and reviewed it and you do love the podcast, if you want to give it a five star with a review, would be so grateful because it helps other people find this kind of content which is all about tips, tools and tactics to help them not only reach the top but…
sustainably stay there. On that note, I’ll be back again for a solo episode next week and I’ll see you all then. Thanks for joining me again Phil.