In this episode of Stay at the Top, I’m joined by Dr Kate Mason, executive coach, communication expert and author of Powerfully Likeable: How to Be Powerful and Likeable at Work (and in Life).
Kate has worked with leaders across Google, Netflix, Uber and Microsoft, helping them navigate the fine line between being respected and being liked. In this conversation, we unpack how to balance authority with warmth, navigate the double bind women often face in leadership, and reframe how we think about confidence and connection.
This episode is filled with practical frameworks, mindset shifts and language cues to help you show up powerfully, communicate with presence, and strengthen your influence without losing authenticity or empathy.
In this episode Dr Kate shares:
- Why power and likeability are not opposites, and how to embody both
- The “double bind” women face and why it’s navigable with skill
- How to use language cues and delivery shifts to earn respect and connection
- The difference between imposter syndrome and imposing syndrome
- How to set boundaries and communicate “no” without losing rapport
- The real meaning of confidence and why it’s built through action, not waiting to feel ready
- How warmth and competence work together to create trust and influence
Key Quotes
“Confidence isn’t a feeling you wait for, it’s a behaviour you practice.”
“You can be powerful and likeable. You don’t need to choose.”
“The same behaviours can land differently depending on who says them and where, that’s the double bind.”
“It’s not about faking confidence, it’s about speaking from a place of clarity and conviction.”
Episode Resources
Website: https://www.katemason.co/
Link to Dr Kate’ book: Amazon
Jessica Spendlove Website – www.jessicaspendlove.com
Jessica Spendlove Keynotes – JessicaspendloveKeynotes – Jessica Spendlove
The High-Performance Profile Quiz https://jessicaspendlove.com/quiz/
Jess Spendlove Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jess_spendlove_dietitian/
Jess Spendlove LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-spendlove-64173bb8/
About Dr Kate
Dr Kate Mason is an executive communications coach, world-champion debater and author. Kate works with women leaders at companies like Google, Netflix, Uber, Microsoft and more to help them navigate the tricky act of “communicating while female” at work. A veteran of high-stakes Silicon Valley roles, Kate brings a unique perspective to leadership, coaching her clients to find versions of power and likeability that are most resonant to them. Her book, Powerfully Likeable has been called a “game-changer” by Publishers Weekly, and Kim Scott of Radical Candor calls it a “compelling, compassionate and funny read in which Mason shows you how to break free”.
About Your Host
Jessica Spendlove | Wellbeing Speaker & High Performance Strategist
Jess Spendlove is an international wellbeing and high performance speaker, coach, and advisor. With over 15 years of experience across corporate leadership, elite sport and the military she is known for helping ambitious leaders and teams optimise energy, build resilience, and sustain peak performance.
As one of Australia’s leading performance dietitians and a trusted voice in executive wellbeing, Jess delivers science-backed strategies that empower individuals, teams and organisations to thrive under pressure and achieve long-term success.
Episode Transcript
The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy
Jess Spendlove (00:02.998)
Most people are told to choose, you can be powerful or you can be likable, but you can’t be both. You can keep your boundaries or you can keep the peace. Well, that is a false choice. And today’s guest is going to show you exactly why. I’m joined by Dr. Kate Mason. She’s an executive communication coach, world champion debater and the author of Powerfully Likable.
Pate works with leaders at Google, Netflix, Uber, and Microsoft and brings years of Silicon Valley experience to helping people find a version of power and likeability that feels true. Publishers Weekly called the book a game changer and Kim Scott of Radical Candor says it’s compelling, compassionate, and funny.
Kate noticed in her years of coaching that so many people feel stuck between being seen as powerful or likable. That if they speak up, they risk being labeled as too much. But if they stay agreeable, they can lose influence or boundaries. In today’s episode, Kate helps us unpack why that happens and more importantly, what to do about it.
we explore how small shifts in language and delivery can change how your message lands and how you can communicate clearly without over explaining yourself or apologizing and how to say no in a way that earns respect, not resentment. As we move through today’s episode, I really encourage you to think about what is speaking to you and potentially where you might sit on this scale or spectrum
of powerful to likable. And think about what opportunities might exist for you that can help you build trust, help you build connection and have influence and be impactful. I really found today’s episode incredibly insightful. I’d also encourage you to get a copy of Kate’s book, Powerfully Likeable. It’s available in hard copy, Kindle,
Jess Spendlove (02:19.646)
or audiobook. And on that note, let’s dive into today’s episode with Dr. Kate Mason.
Jess Spendlove (00:37.369)
Kate Mason, welcome to Stay at the Top.
Kate Mason (00:40.706)
Thanks so much for having me Jess, it’s a thrill to be here.
Jess Spendlove (00:44.303)
I’m so excited for today’s conversation. I mean, when we look at everything that you’ve done from world champion debater as a teenager or a child and teenager to an executive coach, communication coach with a couple of small brands people might’ve heard of, know, the likes of Google and Netflix, Uber, Microsoft as well, I believe. And now an author of an incredible book.
powerfully likeable. How did this all come to be? Was there anything specifically in your background that led to this, led to you writing the book? And I guess what in particular inspired you to put the pen to paper and birth the book into the world?
Kate Mason (01:32.02)
that’s a beautiful question. I wish I could say there was the, you know, a 10 year plan or a strategy that went with it. But honestly, it was, it came out of all the work I’ve been doing over the last sort of 10 years, honestly, where I’d be working with folks, particularly high achieving leaders and noticing certain patterns. And oftentimes I’d finish working with people and they would be saying, you know, I’d love this work together, but what should I read? And
It took me a while before I realized, wait, that’s weird. There isn’t a book on communication and being a woman at work. Like that particular intersection that I felt that I had walked and I knew a lot of people that I worked with that were walking. Why doesn’t that exist? know? And so it took me a, then there was a period where I was like, huh, that is strange. Then it took another beat for me to be like, well, maybe I could put together something and.
And then it was just a pure joy. Then it was just like, my gosh, all of this stuff just came together. All of the coaching stories and the anecdotes and my own experience and research basically came into this experience. So it’s been a total joy bringing that together.
Jess Spendlove (02:42.776)
Yeah, fantastic. And, you know, I guess even if you think about your own personal relationship with maybe the intersection of the two or the polarity of the two on perception of being powerful and being likable. Yeah, how was your relationship or experience with these two at, I guess, first view, polar.
polar aspects of an individual, but as you come to tell the story, they can be quite complimentary and there is an option where you can have both. It just takes a bit of intention and awareness from someone like yourself.
Kate Mason (03:21.454)
Yeah, I think I stumbled on it really early as many of us do. I was probably younger than most because as you said, I started debating when I was 10 and I was usually one of the only women or girls in my all male teams. And even at that point as a teenager was realizing, wow, there’s stuff that the boys are doing and I’m doing and I’m getting called out on, hey, that’s a little bit much or it’s a little too loud or it’s a little too aggressive.
And at the same time, they were getting called out for like such gravitas and such presence. So it became something that I noticed very early and I did not know what to do with. And as I kind of matured and got into my own career, I started realizing, yeah, it is a little bit different here. And what I was really struck by was that it felt like at all times people kept giving us choices. And I say people, it’s probably culture or society as well, right? That you could be liked or can be respected.
or you can be powerful but you can’t be this or you can be that but you can’t be this and I felt that was a really unfair opposition you know that that why was it that that existed in the first place and why can’t I be more than one thing like I’d like to be respected and liked you know is that does that is that so impossible? So it was something on my mind for a long time and the particular binary that that I found when I was working with people especially women was power and likeability.
that it felt like we had this choice to be all powerful and terse and abrupt and transactional and kind of quote like a man and no friends, right? Or we could be high likeability, lots of friends, sure no worries if not, like no boundaries or porous boundaries, but highly likable. know, everybody in the office thinks we’re their friend.
And I thought again, that just doesn’t seem to be an acceptable choice. don’t want that one way choice for me and I don’t want it for others. And so I began to really think about why that binary is in place and almost like how to push against it or how to wiggle it so that there’s really a lot of other places in between. And that’s really the crux of the book.
Jess Spendlove (05:35.973)
And do you think because you your background and tech and you mentioned well debating very male dominant, tech world very male dominant at least you know initially maybe less so now but I’m still sure largely and I can really relate to that coming from the professional sport background because there were times and because I was in with so many teams, seven all up.
Kate Mason (05:44.333)
Mmm.
Jess Spendlove (06:04.056)
Two of those were female sports, but five all male teams. And then often I was the only consistent female support staff. And I remember when we met back in April at the Airtree CEO Summit and you told me a little bit about the book and I just thought, my goodness, I know exactly what you’re talking about because I could definitely relate to feeling. I don’t think it was elements of myself changing, but elements of myself that got pulled out.
because of that environment. So do you think that it is more heightened when it is, you know, smaller female or one of the only women working in that all male environment, or it really is just regardless of the work domain and the makeup of the workforce, this is this dichotomy that exists?
Kate Mason (06:30.925)
you
Kate Mason (06:50.731)
Yeah, I think both are true actually. So I think you’re right that it’s more, maybe we feel it more keenly amongst when we’re different. Just as if you’re the only black person in a white room or any sort of a minority is gonna feel that. I have gay professionals I work with who are maybe in a straight room. Any type of moment where you’re…
highlighted or brought your differences maybe brought into sharper relief I do think that that’s true but I also work with say all female teams who are still sort of wondering hang on how do I stay quote likeable with everybody but also I’m in charge you know how do I have authority in that environment so I do think it it sort of surpasses the minority feeling but that’s maybe where we feel it most keenly
So both are true, but maybe in different ways is my answer there.
Jess Spendlove (07:45.763)
And do you think if you go too far one way, so if you go a bit to Devil Wears Prada, you know, powerful vibes when, you know, there’s no minimal likeability or if you swing too far the other way where the poorest boundaries and friends to everyone and available to everyone, if you go too far, can you change gears and reset that or is it like with that?
group of people and with that environment or is it more you learn the lesson and then as you evolve with new colleagues or a new environment then you can reset.
Kate Mason (08:26.509)
It’s a great question. So part of my work is to say to folks, I don’t want you to be performative on either end. I don’t want you to be performative. So I have people come to me, for example, and say, hey, can you teach me how to be warm? You know, I get feedback that I’m aloof or I’m abrupt or I’m transactional. Can you teach me how to be warm? And I get to know them a little bit and I’ll say no.
I don’t, I can’t and also I don’t want to, you are not warm. That is not your vibe, right? You are extremely insightful, incisive, transactional, you are action oriented, you get stuff done. What we’ll do is for example, for that person is a number of things, but one of them would be saying, equip you with tools such that that makes sense to other people. So for example, I have a client who’s, who has been told things that she’s aloof and that type of stuff. So she’ll call it out and she’ll say, Hey,
I’m actually super excited to be in this conversation. I’m super excited to be reviewing this material. I tend to get into action mode, right? I tend to go straight to the nut of it. And like I’m you might think I’m being abrupt or aloof. I’m just really excited to get to the answer. So please don’t mistake this for not excitement. I’m here. I’m ready. But that’s how I’m going to be. Now, what that does is give her permission to just be who she is. Right. Like and she excels in that, by the way, she’s quite brilliant.
But it also gives everybody else a sort of doorway to understanding like, she doesn’t hate me, right? Like this is not about, which is actually in doing that sort of mini communication is a very likable thing. She’s connecting with you in a way that feels good to her. So a lot of this work is understanding that like I really do as Pat as it sounds, I do want you to show up where you’re currently excelling.
right, where you’re already doing great work, but give you tools in which to be able to open up to people or show people why and how you’re doing that. Similarly, if you’re super warm and super likable, I don’t want you to stop doing that. But I also want you to be able to understand how to step into authority when you need to in a way that feels on brand for you. Does that resonate? it’s less about like
Kate Mason (10:41.569)
hey, I’m gonna move you to a different point of the spectrum. And more about saying there is a spectrum. We don’t have to kind of run to one end to the other, but here’s some tools in that you might not have thought of or you might be able to adopt or experiment with that might help you more comfortably own that space. And that’s where my work really sits. I’m very excited about that because that’s, think, where you get, I think authenticity is a really overused word, but.
You can smell or you can sense where someone is in that authentic space that is them. And it is much more compelling. You know, we resonate, we light up, we feel it. And that’s really what the gift that good communication can give us.
Jess Spendlove (11:24.95)
Yeah, fantastic. And I know throughout the book, like there’s so many examples and nearly many case studies as such, which I think is always helpful when, you know, the book is really, and I think it’s mentioned in there, but the way I view it, it’s like a manual and you don’t necessarily, I mean, it definitely should be like a cover to cover option, but you can really pick it up and use it as a tool. And there’s lots of great reflections and tips and activities to work through it.
But if we think on the person who’s maybe a little bit more, and like you said, it’s a spectrum and it’s just kind of where the person sits as.
as their true self, but if they are that more likeable person, more prone to oversharing in all of the ways, so the boundaries aspect, maybe the vulnerability, maybe, like you said, they are the leader, but they have a tendency to, yeah, I guess overshare is probably the word I’m looking for, know, vulnerability kind of gets thrown around, like you should be vulnerable, that’s how you connect, but is it really putting four walls around what that…
Kate Mason (12:01.389)
Hmm
Kate Mason (12:17.205)
Yeah.
Jess Spendlove (12:25.697)
that looks like, or do you have an example maybe with a client or two front of mind that has helped just shape that a little bit?
Kate Mason (12:29.997)
and
Mmm. yes, I mean again if you’re if you are vulnerable and that’s your kind of comfortable space I wouldn’t ask you to shy away from it, but I would think about what are you doing that can also code for authority and certainty so for example, I have one of my clients is Really, I would how would I how would I characterize her? I guess I would call her super friendly
She’s straight away very warm, very quick to get into small talk. How are you? How are your kids? know, really, really… You can tell she really wants to connect on that friend level. But what she was doing, which was really interesting and it took me a while working with her to work this out, she was upward inflecting everything when she would talk to someone. So she would say like, so one of the things we’re going to do is we’re going to talk through this and I’m hoping that we might be able to do that.
And what she was doing is basically encoding a lot of her language and even the way she was framing it, her physicality with uncertainty. So people were getting this really friendly burst of energy, which was great, but then none of it was coding for certainty. And so I said, can you see here that you’re actually undermining what you’re saying? Great stuff. You’re you, but the way you’re saying and presenting it is uncertain and unsure.
And she’s like, but I’m not uncertain or unsure about it. And I said, I know I can tell, but you can see the impact it’s having here. So again, I said, I don’t want to be, I don’t want to make people be performative, but I do sort of hold up a mirror and say, Hey, if you’re doing this or if it’s landing like that, or if you’re getting feedback in this genre, this is a way you might want to orient yourself such that you’re doing the same thing. You’re speaking from the same place, but it’s landing in a way that in her, in her context,
Kate Mason (14:26.091)
was actually giving authority. And that’s the thing she was really missing in that. She didn’t identify so much with being like super powerful, but she needed to be able to say, no, no, I know the way the ship is sailing. This is the way, and you should trust me that I know that. And I think that trust development is what we’re really looking at when we think about persuasive communication, right? Do you feel like the person is giving you that information? It’s kind of safe hands.
you know, whether you’re a colleague, like a peer or a leader, do you trust that if you take their direction, it’s gonna end up well? That’s where we’re really, where we can turn up and down that volume with communication. You can be a trusted person to someone, which is incredibly valuable.
Jess Spendlove (15:14.339)
100%, it’s regardless of any relationship, personally, professionally, absolutely critical. And then if we think, and I guess what I’m hearing at the moment is largely, and maybe it’s just what I’m hearing or thinking as we’re talking, like it’s a lot of the communication at a face-to-face value. And I guess when we move this into the written format, the good old email, and I did have a chuckle and again, one part of the book where it was like,
Kate Mason (15:17.695)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Jess Spendlove (15:43.401)
do I have too many exclamation marks? Do I not have enough exclamation marks? Do I use an emoji? How does this translate into the written format? Which, you know, I feel that that is a challenge. That is challenging when you’re trying to communicate something authentically and as you are without, but not understanding how the person at the other end will read it. So what tips do you have there?
Kate Mason (15:46.605)
I’m
Kate Mason (16:06.239)
Yes. Yeah. Look, I wish I had, I wish I had like a, it’s always this many exclamation marks. You know, there’s not really a formula. I am someone who uses emojis and exclamation marks. I’m, I’m joyful. And I put that in my, in my email comms. I think we spend largely a long time editing ourselves and sort of self surveilling on email in particular, right? Did I, did I look
Jess Spendlove (16:13.787)
Ha ha ha ha!
Kate Mason (16:33.983)
psychotic, did I look friendly, did I look approachable, did I look weird? I even have people who I coach who will sometimes send me a quick email and then send me a follow-up saying sorry if that sounded too direct, I was just in a hurry and I’m thinking bless you, you were worried about you know a very transactional email, we were just rescheduling something. So I know the cost of that self-surveillance both in time and in energy for many of us. I always try to start from
What are the facts that you need from them? And generally, are you putting in deference or are you putting in warmth? So instead of like, I’m so sorry to bother you, Jess. Would it be possible? I’m so sorry to ask, but you know, and a whole lot of caveats and disclaimers in that email, just to say, hey, Jess, it was great seeing you on the weekend.
could I get those notes by this afternoon? I need to get them to my boss, you know, in the morning. Thanks so much. Right? It’s just like, I’m just going to go, I’m not going to tie myself up into a pretzel or like sort of self-flagellate in front of you for asking a perfectly reasonable thing, which often we’re asking perfectly reasonable things in emails. So just think, am I being deferential in a weird way? Like, it serving me and the other person? I get a lot of emails that are just,
hyper-hyper deferential and actually what’s hard about them, obviously I feel an emotional like pull like gosh I’m so sorry you’re feeling all these things but it’s honestly hard to pass what the ask is you know you have to do a lot of reading and there’s a lot of paragraphs to actually realize you just need me to jump on a call right so actually I would be better served if you were just able to say hey Kate you know would love to get your opinion on something and you’re available for 30 minutes thanks so much you know looking forward to it.
that’s a perfectly acceptable thing. I think it’s less about the number of emojis and exclamation marks. Although again, I wish I had a magic bullet for you and more just like, am I asking this in a way that feels like me but isn’t necessarily sort of coming from a place of low, low status or deference when I don’t need to.
Jess Spendlove (18:36.469)
Yeah
Jess Spendlove (18:50.998)
Yeah, great. And I guess some of the things you’ve just mentioned there with the disclaimers are in a section of the book, is about not imposter syndrome, which everybody I feel like, particularly at the moment, it gets a lot of airtime, but you talk about something called imposing syndrome. I mean, before we get into, I’ve definitely got some questions, because when I read that, I shrunk into my chair and I was like, yep.
Kate Mason (18:56.301)
and
Jess Spendlove (19:17.504)
guilty, there were a few that really stood out. for those listening, can you just define what your, what imposing syndrome is? And again, maybe where this light bulb moment for you came up to talk about this in your journey.
Kate Mason (19:17.805)
I’m out.
Kate Mason (19:33.324)
Yeah, so I’m a recognizer of patterns. Like that’s part of what I do as a coach and it’s part of probably my personality as well. And one of the things that I kept noticing, I’d meet these really high performing people, women and men, but I would say this is affecting women potentially more, who had this pattern of in some way fearing to be an imposition.
They didn’t want to be the person asking for help, for resources, for time, for a promotion, whatever it was. That felt like the worst thing. And I resonated really deeply with that myself because I hate asking for help. I have a real, like that’s a real bugbear for me. I’m the independent one. I will get it done. Don’t worry about me.
And yet I have to do lots of asks, you know, I’m just coming off a book tour where I’ve been asking everybody, you know, can I come and speak? Can I, you know, come to your bookshop, whatever it might be. So it resonated very much with me in my work and I started working out what are the different types of impositions that we fear and how do we communicate those linguistically. So one of them, for example, is we often fear taking time, somebody’s time.
So we’ll say things like, I’ll just pop by your desk or it’ll only take two seconds or I promise it won’t take long. Right? And all of this is in service of probably a nice social thought, which is I don’t want to waste somebody’s time. But the impact of those is often that we end up looking like, we look like we’re not handling something important and we look like
by extension, we are not important. So if I say to you, Jess, it’ll only take two minutes, I’m probably not planning on telling you some amazing epiphany I’ve had, because that’s not gonna take two minutes. And largely, it’s gonna take longer than two minutes. So you’re gonna be annoyed that I haven’t even expectations set that well anyway. Like it’s probably gonna take five minutes or 10 minutes or whatever it might be. So I’m always like, it’s okay to actually say, hey Jess, I’d love to walk you through, you know, my plan for Q4.
Kate Mason (21:46.766)
I’m put 30 minutes for us next week, let me know if the time works. And by just accepting that yes, I need to take this time, it’s valuable, the import of that to the other person is, Kate’s valuable or Kate thinks this work is valuable. And it’s really subtle, but it’s a very interesting thing that can undermine us, I think. And so why I wanted to call out the sin or why I call it imposing syndrome in the book and list through different types of it is,
that’s something that resonates with you as it might have for you maybe think about not doing that or maybe think about what are my other options here that might actually be encoded for comfort and and a sense of self-value that I’m really keen for people especially high-performing women to to sit with and enjoy right because we’ve
We’ve all earned that. We’ve earned the time with somebody else. It’s probably a really good idea we’re gonna share.
Jess Spendlove (22:47.509)
Definitely and I think you know at the end of the day it’s about self-awareness and maybe it’s something which You’re not just aware on or even if you are aware on it. Maybe the ramification or like you said like the extension of What you’re saying and how that’s actually being picked up I don’t know personally for myself it Just stuff. I feel like the just just just Gina. I think you caught it in the book, but
Kate Mason (23:14.635)
Yes.
Jess Spendlove (23:16.001)
But sometimes as well, I’m aware of the just now because I’ve picked this up and read it in a few different places. But sometimes the just just feels like the bridge between softening the email and it being hard. So I do have a few examples which I thought could be a bit fun which we just run through. maybe, yeah, just a bit of a just a bit of a refra.
Kate Mason (23:30.175)
Mmm, mmm.
Kate Mason (23:35.618)
great!
Kate Mason (23:40.3)
you
Jess Spendlove (23:41.812)
If you’ve got some suggestions and however you want to answer it, whether it’s on how to reframe it or an explanation of what’s happening and yeah, yeah, something a bit different. But the first example that I have is, and it’s kind of a combination of the two things we’ve just covered, which is, I just wanted to check in with you.
Kate Mason (23:45.131)
Yeah.
Kate Mason (23:50.931)
Awesome, I love this. Okay, great. Totally, let’s do it.
Kate Mason (24:07.629)
Mmm
Jess Spendlove (24:09.877)
What would we, and I guess where that’s coming from, I’m thinking of the example of, you’re building a network or you’re trying to retain the warmth of your network, but you don’t really have anything to reach out to this person. And so you’re just checking in with them. What would you be suggesting to somebody that they could potentially say or do instead of that, which feels just meaningless.
Kate Mason (24:20.077)
you
Hmm
Mmm
Kate Mason (24:36.109)
Yeah, yeah, so the well the just isn’t for me actually on the receiving end of that or being imagining receiving end of that the just isn’t the worst offender there the checking in is because I don’t know what that requires of me right are you asking for my advice do you want a cup of coffee do you want to just you know ask my opinion on something the vagary of that is tricky so I think I would probably frame it as
I was thinking of you the other day, I’d love to grab a coffee or see where you’re at. Be great to have a call or a coffee. You my calendar’s here if that works. You know, hope all’s well. That at least gives like a next action. Cause for me, I’m pretty literal. And so I would, I would prefer the like, she wants me to have a meeting with her or something like that. Does that answer that in that way? The, the, the, I would, yeah, the, the just, mean.
Again, like all of these things, it’s not always a terrible word. Sometimes that’s going to be a really appropriate word, but when you’re finding it’s a pattern that might be undermining everything, right? I just wanted to talk about my really exciting new podcast I’m going to be launching. Probably isn’t appropriate there, but I’m just asking what you might feel like for dinner could be entirely reasonable.
So again, it’s always a bit context dependent, but I love this list. I’m eager to hear more.
Jess Spendlove (26:04.673)
What about less of a specific example but more of giving someone an easy out when you’re asking something and you actually really want or need them to help you but then you give them a like only if it works for you or I don’t know yeah no worries if not
Kate Mason (26:22.833)
No worries if not. Yeah so the easy ask again think about it with warmth so hey Jess I would so love to be able to get you on my podcast for example I don’t have a podcast but I would if I did. I’d so love to get you on my podcast we’re gonna be filming on these dates in the future let me know if any of them suit you it would be great to make it work. Right?
Jess Spendlove (26:37.736)
Hahaha
Jess Spendlove (26:49.309)
Ugh, so good. So good at that.
Kate Mason (26:51.871)
It’s still really friendly, but it’s not, it’s, and I’m not sort of like, it’s okay if you don’t have to, because I assume it’s okay, right? I assume you’re an adult and you can choose yes or no. That’s really what we’re thinking about. If I’m comfortable, I’m okay with you then coming back and saying, Kate, I would have loved to, unfortunately I’m busy, best of luck, right? That is a viable outcome for you to choose and one that I would fully respect.
Jess Spendlove (27:18.165)
So good, I actually had a sports psychologist, a performance psychologist on a few weeks ago and when you were talking before about the asks, I can relate to that. I’m very happy sitting in the, can I help you? Let me connect you with you. Calling in the favor or the ask for someone where there’s goodwill, know, extensive history and her reframe or…
Kate Mason (27:27.565)
you
Yes, yes.
Jess Spendlove (27:41.823)
Yeah, I guess it was a reframe was don’t say no on someone else’s behalf, which I think really also marries up well with what you’ve just said there.
Kate Mason (27:47.958)
Yes.
Kate Mason (27:51.99)
Yes and there’s also some really interesting research on weak ties and strong ties. I think that there is a gendered relationship to women who think I couldn’t possibly reach out to her I haven’t spoken to her in over a year for example. Whereas the research bears out that men are much more likely like yeah I spoke to him a while back I’ll I’ll shoot him a note and so we’re actually yeah you’re right we’re saying no early but we’re closing off a lot of those options and
I’m here to tell you if you’re worried about this as a listener, I’ve reached out to pretty much everybody I’ve ever met in logic of this book and I would say that on the whole the response has been so excited to help. People like to help, people are happy to sort of say yeah I’ve got someone in my network who I could introduce you to or let me see what I can do so you’re actually in some cases giving them a gift.
right to get them involved on your behalf or champion what you’re after. So and you know it in yourself when you’re asked for help it’s you know you’re always quite sort of pleased to be able to do what you can. So I think we’ve built it up into this impossible ask and it’s often not it’s often really doable.
Jess Spendlove (29:04.724)
Totally. Okay, I’ve got one which, this was one I cringed on because I thought of a recent moment where I definitely said this at the end of something I was explaining. Does this make sense?
Kate Mason (29:18.208)
Hmm.
Mmm. So this one might be my own personal bugbear. I’m fully I’m happy to take that. I see a lot of really really smart people make amazing points like killer arguments Like bring it home and then end it with the very Undermining does that make sense? And why I think it’s a problem is that it’s it’s sort of on the one hand saying
I’m just someone who never makes sense. did I did it work that time? Like did I actually get my thoughts in a coherent order? So it’s sort of very self diminishing in a way. I don’t think is that appropriate. Other people have told me they find it patronizing or like condescending. Like does that make sense? Like did your little brain follow me when I was explaining this thing? So I think it can put people off on a bunch of ways. The biggest thing is that what you’re actually asking for when you ask does that make sense is you’re asking for consensus.
You’re asking, did it resonate? Are we on the same page? So you could always say like, look, I’ve just been talking for a lot there and I’ve covered a lot of ground. there any questions before we move on? Or I’d love to hear, I’d love to leave space for some thoughts from everyone here. Cause you know, this is, can you check my thinking on it? Right. And what that does is you’re getting the consensus and the buy-in or the conversations data, but you’re not undermining yourself. You’re, you’re quite comfortable with what you’ve just said.
So so that’s something that I think again it can subtly be undermining particularly if you use a lot of these different Modes together right if you’re adding adjust and it does that make sense and in no worries if not, right? If you’re going through the whole list it can look shaky and we don’t want to be looking shaky. We want to look solid
Jess Spendlove (31:05.665)
100%. And maybe this is a similar one, but I guess at the other end of the, maybe the question or the ask, this might be a silly question, but… dot, dot.
Kate Mason (31:16.525)
Hmm
Kate Mason (31:22.027)
Yeah, so this one’s a really common one and it happens also with I’m not an expert but or I’m not a nutrition expert but you know we cut our own legs off before we’ve even started so when you ask me this might be a silly question all I hear is this is a silly question right that’s the sticky part of that and often that question is a really reasonable one.
And I understand the intention behind it. You’re like, oh gosh, I hope this doesn’t make me sound dumb or da da. But oftentimes that question is really important. And if you’re asking it and if you’ve been paying attention, it needs to be asked, right? You need that clarity. So you could just say, I have a couple of different ones I use. If I’m in a conversation with someone where it’s very new material, I’m getting up to date with a client who is like very specialized or very technical, I’ll say, hey, thanks so much.
for this explanation, I’m gonna be asking a lot of questions today and they’re gonna feel obvious, but I wanna make sure that I’m really in lockstep with you and understand everything. Is that okay? And they’ll say, yes, of course. And I’ll say, great, here they are. Right, so I’m just, telling you, I’m signposting to you. I wanna make sure I’m in lockstep and then usually that means I’ve caught up and I’m good. You could also say something like, can I clarify? Are we definitely talking about X?
because I want to make sure again that we’re on the same page or whatever it is. You see how that definitely, we’re peers in that interaction rather than like, silly me or shucks, you know, what would I know? Right. Which is a place we often will put ourselves when we just don’t need to. So most people are really happy from it for a clarifying question. The last way I would suggest is you could say, can you tell me more about that? Could you dig into that? Or I’m really interested what you said this.
Can you speak a bit more to that? Because I’d love to understand the context here that we’re operating in. That’s fascinating, right? That’s not a deferential move. It’s actually showing engagement and interest, but you’re getting the more context or the explanation that you might require.
Jess Spendlove (33:21.054)
So good.
Jess Spendlove (33:30.697)
so good. think a lot of people will find that really helpful because I, and again, you know, reading through it not only makes you reflect on yourself, but other interactions or interactions that have just maybe like the person’s been either really respected in their role or a really nice person, but something’s just left a bit of an ick.
Kate Mason (33:48.877)
Hmm.
Jess Spendlove (33:52.553)
And it left me reflecting on that and I thought, yeah, there’s nearly one or a few of these in all of those. So I think just the awareness, the call out, but also some examples with the reframe. And again, like plenty of this in the book, so.
Kate Mason (33:52.567)
Yes.
Jess Spendlove (34:07.444)
you whether you’re a hard copy, a Kindle or an audio version person, it’s in all the forms. yeah, I’m enjoying my hard copy. The highlight is definitely the highlight. One which kind of sits into here, but something we touched on before, and it is definitely something, I mean, I’ve had listeners say, we do an episode on boundaries in the corporate world and this kind of thing? But I feel it’s an interesting one which can either
Kate Mason (34:19.972)
that’s so nice. Thank you.
Kate Mason (34:33.197)
you
Jess Spendlove (34:37.464)
A, be struggled to be communicated or B, fear of communicating in a way that is just too harsh. So do you have any, I don’t know, guidelines or magic that you can suggest around probably A, the reframe, but B, how it can be communicated both powerfully and with some likeability.
Kate Mason (34:45.473)
Yeah.
Kate Mason (34:59.765)
Yes, totally. So I think the thing you learn in corporate life is that it’s very different to maybe a culture aided or societally approved woman life, right? So we are told we are the ones who will, we carry the bandaid and the nail file and the, you know, everything. We are the ones who will solve the problem, not make the problem or ask the problem. We don’t push back. We acquiesce, right? That’s kind of like a culture aided.
societal thing that, you know, thanks patriarchy and hundreds of years of acculturation. So we don’t need to get into that, but the workplace is one of the first places that we have to push up against that and realize, my gosh, I’ve now got to say no, thank you, or I’m not able to do that. Or, you know, that may be really unfamiliar culturally to you, or it may be familiarly really different, right? There are certain family models where that’s sort of not acceptable or not the way you do it. So work is a really interesting one.
I give a lot of careful language around this because I know it’s really dependent on who’s asking and how to be able to bridge that. So I often hear or see on Instagram, you know, that like, no is a full sentence. It’s like, well, it’s not really at work. You can’t just say no and expect that to be good enough. a good one to be, if, you know, if your boss sort of puts another project on and says, Hey, I need you to get this done. And you don’t think you can get it done. A good way to handle that might be to say,
Could I just chat through with you? I just want to understand the prioritization. Cause these are the four other things I’m working on right now. In relation to those, is this new one the most important or where would you like me to put that? Because in terms of the week ahead, I want to make sure that, or you know, the month ahead, whatever it is, I want to make sure that I’m, you know, paying that enough attention. That does a couple of things. It reminds your boss what’s actually on your plate. Cause it’s very easy for them to forget, but it also gives you an opportunity then if they say all of them are important.
you to be able to say, I’m going to be able to get three of those done this week or four of those done to the quality that I want this week. Like tell me how you would like me to, you know, allocate the next one or something like that. So it just makes it visible. So it’s not like I can’t possibly or no, it makes it really tangible and visible, which I think is a really good way.
Jess Spendlove (37:14.629)
Or also then agreeing and not being able to deliver which also… Yep.
Kate Mason (37:18.517)
which is deeply unlikable, right? It’s really annoying when someone says I’ll get it to you by Friday and they don’t, right? We’ve all been in that receiving end as well, right? So I would much rather you say to me, I can’t get it done by then, but here’s what I can do or help me prioritize this than just not getting it done at all. If you’re in a position where it’s like a freelancer, so I go through the different sorts of contexts in the book, but you know, an example there of a freelancer might just be like, I’m so sorry, I’m at capacity.
If you don’t want to do it at all, like thanks so much for inquiring, know, I wish you all the best. Maybe you put them in touch with someone else who can do it. Maybe you don’t. Or it’s like, look, I’m not available until January. You know, I’d love to check in then and we can talk about it. Right. So just again, giving transparent boundaries. I am someone who’s had my own company for eight or so years and I’m always very transparent. Can I take you on right now? What can I do?
And it’s not personal. I’m trying to say to you, I know the limit of what I can take on at a time. And so like, here’s the next availability. I’d love to be able to make that work, but I understand if the timeline doesn’t work for you. And no one has ever come back and thought, you know, how terrible that is. They’ve appreciated the visibility and the transparency, I think. And if they haven’t, they haven’t told me.
Jess Spendlove (38:39.613)
And like it’s most of the time it’s just that ability to communicate your needs in a way that yeah, it feels aligned, but the person at the other end is leaving with an understanding of, okay, I didn’t realize that yes, I forgot about those other three projects which were on her or his plate and you know, it’s…
Kate Mason (38:59.595)
Yeah.
Jess Spendlove (39:02.845)
We often think we’re the center of everybody else’s world, but we’re not, the center of our world. And it’s just fun. I think you’re exactly right there. I mean, look, there’s so many, there’s so many good things in the book and I do have a few more questions. I really want to just make sure everybody is leaving with some tools and tactics because I feel like that’s really the…
Kate Mason (39:09.281)
That’s it. That’s it.
Kate Mason (39:18.669)
sure
Jess Spendlove (39:25.459)
That’s really what I try and do, what I try and deliver. Like what is the tool, the framework, the tactics? And I mean, we’ve already covered so much, but that’s really what I’ve taken away from the book. There’s just so much in there, which is so generous. It really is an insight into the work that you do and have done for so long and how amazing that you are. But I think I’d like to also talk just quickly about confidence because it is quite a big theme in the book.
Kate Mason (39:49.995)
I’m sorry.
Jess Spendlove (39:50.931)
Are there any surprising myths or there are some surprising myths that you bust about confidence?
Kate Mason (39:55.918)
Yeah, so one of the things that I found in my work is that a lot of people were coming to me saying I’ve been told I need to be more confident or I need to work on my confidence and that feedback was counter-intuitively or ironically or however you might want to frame it, paralyzing them. were there any confidence they did have had shrunk.
and they’d become very, very self-critical and self-conscious in almost any situation, right? Am I, did I ask that question in a confident way? Did I say that in a confident way? And why that’s the case or why I contend that’s the case is that I think confidence is maybe it’s aligned in your work with health. It’s the outcome. So if you went around telling, just be healthy.
Right? We know what that means in the sense we understand what that outcome is, but the path there for all of us is really, really different. And it’s not going to be that intuitive to some of us, right? To be healthy for some is going to be to eat all vegan and, you know, swim in the ocean every morning. And for others, it’s, just going to be getting more steps than they were before. Right? So confidence can be a really disabling thing to be told. And I find that so sad because
The intention I’m sure behind that feedback was I want to help you, but it’s given in this very blunt way. So my maybe counterintuitive advice is just stop thinking about confidence. Take it off the table as an option for yourself. The way to actually get confident is to think of two things. How can I connect better with this person? So am I listening?
Am I fully present? Am I understanding what they care about, what they want, how I can, you know, engage with them? And secondly, how can I help? And I know that sounds sort of a strange one, but think about your boss. What are they scared of? How can I help make them feel better about this or answer a question that they have? they really need help with that strategy. I can do that, right? I can. That can be one of the projects I’m taking on this week.
Kate Mason (42:07.945)
It’s not to say go above and beyond your job remit or take on emotional caretaking, not at all, but it’s being sensible enough to understand if I can connect and be of service, I am likely one to be a very valuable peer or colleague. But two, I’m going to look confident, right? Because you’re in the doing of the thing. You’re bringing it back to a place where you can add value to it, where you know that you have some sort of intrinsic.
addition to make and suddenly that looks like my gosh thank God Jess took that on you know she came back with this great plan and we’re all really happy about it. It’s the doing of the thing it’s like a verb right we have to do the thing for it to happen rather than to sort of be passive and be like did I sit in a confident way or did I you know did I dress confidently all these things that can kind of get in the way of it so that’s my way of thinking around it and I
That chapter is somewhat provocatively called Kill Your Confidence, but really it’s aimed at the idea of don’t get paralysed by that spotlight. It can feel like actually start connecting and listening and doing and you’ll actually find your way there I think much quicker.
Jess Spendlove (43:25.404)
You’re right. It’s, you know, it’s not the power pose or the power suit or even when you said the outcome, you know, it is there’s so many parallels to, to my work. And I feel like, you know, the types of people we work with, it’s same types of people just in our own, in our own areas. And that is what I call the all or nothing mindset. And that really shows up when people get stuck on the outcome. I’ve got to go to the gym six times a week, or I’m trying to run a
Kate Mason (43:34.733)
Mmm.
Kate Mason (43:47.596)
Bye.
Jess Spendlove (43:54.771)
whatever marathon, you know, like all of these outcome based and it’s like, okay, you actually need to focus on the day to day, how my energy is, know, how I’m moving through my day, how I’m sleeping, all of these things, which actually are the little pieces to the puzzle that lead to the outcome. different areas, but parallels in the method, I guess.
Kate Mason (43:57.249)
Yeah.
Kate Mason (44:03.009)
Yes.
Kate Mason (44:14.486)
Yes.
Kate Mason (44:18.817)
Yes, yes, that’s right. And not getting hung up on like, was today a healthy day or was that a confident meeting? Like, it might not have been and that’s okay. It’s just like resetting for the next day or the next interaction.
Jess Spendlove (44:32.528)
I’ve loved this chat so much. I guess as we come to the end, I do have a few quick kind of takeaways or reflections because there’s just so much gold in your work and the book. But if you had to summarize, if you have a favorite tool or a favorite reflection or is there one simple, powerful communication shift that listeners can make today?
Kate Mason (44:34.605)
Sweet ring.
Kate Mason (44:39.669)
Mmm.
Kate Mason (44:56.653)
you
that’s such a, it’s like asking me to choose my favorite child. It’s very tricky. I think one of the tools I go through in the book is one of my favorites and I do this in coaching too, which is a bit of an audit. Where are you now? Where are you currently showing up and communicating the best you think? What are the conditions where that happens for you? And where are the moments where you feel like, that didn’t go as well as I wanted?
Jess Spendlove (45:03.719)
You
Kate Mason (45:26.829)
I do that audit with everybody and do it in the book too just to kind of start like where do you drop the pin on the map? You know and and we don’t often analyze like what’s that starting point look like and importantly we don’t often give ourselves credit for what’s already going well so I encourage everyone if they’re interested to do one of those audits that I talk through and I think it gives you a really nice place to start any work you want to do from.
Jess Spendlove (45:55.582)
100 % it’s, you you probably don’t word it like this, but I do, you know, what’s the ground zero? Where are we starting from? And like you said, like we’re really probably good at.
Kate Mason (46:02.443)
Yeah!
Jess Spendlove (46:06.11)
seeing the things we want to improve on, but what about the things that we’re already doing and giving ourselves a pat on the back and building our confidence maybe by doing so? And I don’t know if this also maybe answers this question, but if there was one idea or theme you wanted people to walk away from with the book, what would that be?
Kate Mason (46:13.547)
Yeah.
Kate Mason (46:17.163)
Definitely! no, I totally agree.
Kate Mason (46:31.501)
Communication shouldn’t be performative. You should be thinking about where you already are and the binary that you might think you’re beholden to doesn’t exist.
Jess Spendlove (46:43.41)
Fantastic. There’s been a lot of talk obviously about your expertise, but I do like to ask all my listeners, sorry, all my guests, because everybody I get on is doing some incredible things and that requires them to take care of themselves in a way that works for them. So what three habits or behaviors do you have in your life that help you stay at the top?
Kate Mason (47:10.413)
They have fluctuated wildly this year I will say because it’s been an unusual year that’s got me out of some habits but I would say sleep is one of my most important if I if I can get to bed early if I can have a nap if there’s an opportunity for sleep I will take it I find that’s like medicinal for me I mean I think it’s probably medicinal for everybody but but I notice very keenly when I am under slept
The second one is probably some sort of movement of my body. So whether if it’s only a walk or if it’s only just, you know, a short, even if it’s like 15 minutes on the treadmill, as opposed to the hour or whatever it might otherwise be, I’ll try and fit that in. So it’s sleep, movement and eating in a way that is giving me energy.
So I have a sweet tooth, but if I can try and make sure that I’m getting protein, that’s what I notice is gives me more energy. It’s not always perfect every day, but like if even if it’s eating out a lot when traveling and understanding that I’m trying to make the best decision that I can on that menu, that’s what I’ll try and think about.
Jess Spendlove (48:31.581)
100%, you’ve raised such an important point. And that’s a conversation I often have with my clients who often travel and that, you know, we might set up a good framework for them while they’re at home, but then they have the same expectation on themselves when they travel. it’s like, no, we need a version of that, but it doesn’t need to be the, again, it’s these all or nothing kind of perfectionistic and you’ve nailed it. It’s like, can I make the best decision here? And that’s more so about
What energy am I going to have? How am I going to feel? It doesn’t have to be the same strategy. So I should make a note and I don’t think I’ve done exactly an episode on that, but I should do a, I think that’s a good episode for me to cover.
Kate Mason (49:13.799)
I would listen in a heartbeat. It’s taken me a long time to feel comfortable with it not being perfect. And, and now I’m like, okay, that was the best I could do today. And you know what? 15 minutes was better than no minutes. So here I am. Right.
Jess Spendlove (49:29.277)
15 minutes is amazing. Yeah, I’m really glad there’s the research is now coming out to support that as well. it’s, you know, it’s not, even if we look at guidelines where it says, you know, this many minutes a week, it really talks about just adding it up across the week in whatever way, shape or form, because we just don’t want anything to be prohibitive. it’s, again, if we come back to this, well, what is going to support…
Kate Mason (49:49.196)
Yeah.
Jess Spendlove (49:54.206)
how I feel today, which is what I really focus in on that energy piece and that mood piece or whatever that might be. That five minute walk or 10 or 15, whatever it is, is supportive of that. Kate. Well, yeah, there’s even like stuff coming out around like two minutes, you know, like if you’ve only got.
Kate Mason (50:01.614)
you
Kate Mason (50:06.081)
Yes, yeah. I didn’t know there was research Jess, you’ve made me feel a lot better.
Jess Spendlove (50:15.173)
two minutes so you know yeah like just getting up and moving and not sitting and getting more oxygen around the body and kind of stimulating the mitochondria which is our little energy kind of powerhouses of the cells anyway we’ve gone tangent in here I’m taking Kate I’m sure the listeners have loved
Kate Mason (50:16.394)
Amazing.
Kate Mason (50:32.737)
That’s amazing.
Jess Spendlove (50:36.827)
today’s conversation and obviously I’ll have all of your links to socials and the book in the notes but where is the best place for people to connect and follow your amazing work?
Kate Mason (50:47.949)
thank you. Well, my website is KateMason.co and I have my newsletter there, which is a good way to stay in touch with what I’m thinking about. I’m also on LinkedIn and Instagram if those are people’s platforms of choice.
Jess Spendlove (51:01.713)
Fantastic. Thank you for your generosity and joining me today. Thank you for putting this incredible book into the world and knowing that it will help a lot of people, definitely women, but I’m sure there’s so many themes in all of the work which will speak to men as well. But appreciate your time this morning and for those listening, thank you for tuning in for another episode. If you’ve liked today’s episode,
please share it with a friend, tag us on socials or send it. There will be so many people that can benefit from this. And otherwise on that note, I’ll be back again next week with another episode helping you not only reach the top, but sustainably stay there. I’ll see you all then.