For this episode I am joined by the incredible Sophie Scott to talk about all things burn out and High Functioning Anxiety.
Sophie Scott OAM is an international speaker, award-winning broadcast journalist, educator and TedX speaker.
She specialises in using the latest scientific research to help people maximise their human potential, mindset, and mental health.
She has written two books, won numerous major awards for her journalism and sits on multiple Advisory Board for mental health organisations.
In this episode Sophie shares:
- Her life in journalism and how it led to the health space
- Her personal experience with burn out
- Her top two things for you to do when feeling burnt out
- Why high performers are at high risk of burn out
- Why high functioning anxiety is a problem
- Her advice on resources for meditation
- The importance of “the three c’s”
Key Quotes
“If you love your job and you love what you do, you need to be even more cautious.”
“It might’ve taken you months or years that got you into the state of burn out so it might take you a while to get out.”
“Taking the small actions and being consistent, that’s what moves the dial in terms of how you feel.”
Episode Resources
You can find Sophie through her website: https://www.sophiescott.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sophiescott2
Or youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrscfB-ELC9paFawlWVaGzA
Jessica Spendlove Website – www.jessicaspendlove.com
Jessica Spendlove Keynotes – JessicaspendloveKeynotes – Jessica Spendlove
The High-Performance Profile Quiz https://jessicaspendlove.com/quiz/
Jess Spendlove Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jess_spendlove_dietitian/?hl=en
Jess Spendlove LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-spendlove-64173bb8/
About Sophie
Sophie Scott OAM is an international speaker, award-winning broadcast journalist,
educator and TedX speaker.
She specialises in using the latest scientific research to help people maximise their
human potential, mindset, and mental health. She has an extensive social media
presence with her work reaching more than a hundred thousand people a day.
Sophie is an Adjunct Associate Professor in the Notre Dame University Medical
School, lecturing in science communication and was recently awarded a Medal (OAM)
in the Order of Australia General Division for her service to broadcast media, and to
community health.
She has written two books (Live a Longer Life and RoadTesting Happiness.
She has won numerous major awards for her journalism as the National Medical
Reporter for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation including a prestigious Eureka
Award for medical reporting.
Sophie is on the Advisory Board of the Australian National Mental Health Prize.
She also sits on the Australia’s National Mental Health Commission’s advisory board
on stigma and the University of Melbourne’s Contemplative Studies Centre.
She is an ambassador for Bowel Cancer Australia, Pain Australia and is a patient
reviewer for the British Medical Journal.
Sophie is married and has four sons.
About Your Host
Jessica Spendlove | Wellbeing Speaker & High Performance Strategist
Jess Spendlove is an international wellbeing and high performance speaker, coach, and advisor. With over 15 years of experience across corporate leadership, elite sport and the military she is known for helping ambitious leaders and teams optimise energy, build resilience, and sustain peak performance.
As one of Australia’s leading performance dietitians and a trusted voice in executive wellbeing, Jess delivers science-backed strategies that empower individuals, teams and organisations to thrive under pressure and achieve long-term success.
Episode Transcript
The following transcript has been automatically generated and not checked for accuracy
Jess (00:02.126)
Welcome to this week’s episode of Stay at the Top. Today I am joined by Sophie Scott, who is a former TV medical reporter turned wellbeing speaker and author. Sophie teaches people around the world how to prevent and manage burnout, reduce stress and communicate with impact. In today’s episode, we…
Jess (00:27.246)
In today’s episode, we talk about burnout and how to heal yourself from burnout. We also talk about really practical and tactical strategies that you can implement into your life.
Jess (00:45.71)
We also talk about really practical and tactical strategies that are easy to implement, low cost that are going to help you prevent or that are going to help you prevent or manage burnout.
Jess (01:08.43)
The other part of today’s conversation is talking about high functioning anxiety. You’ll hear about what it is, some of the common hallmarks, signs and symptoms and how people should start taking actions if they’re experiencing high functioning anxiety. As I said, Sophie is a wealth of knowledge.
Jess (01:50.575)
Sophie really is a wealth of knowledge and I know each person listening today is going to get some value, whether it’s helping them prevent the risk of burning out, whether it’s helping them with tactics to help recover from burnout, or whether there’s just practices which are going to enable, or whether you just find value in the tips, tools, and tactics grounded in science that’s so –
Jess (02:25.999)
or whether you find or or what am I saying?
Jess (02:35.758)
or you might see, or you, what am I saying? Or you may just find value and interest into the science -backed strategies, the science -backed simple strategies that Sophie shares that can help you live a sustainable high -performance life. I hope you all enjoyed today’s episode.
Jess (00:23.272)
Sophie Scott, welcome to Stay at the Top. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Sophie Scott (00:31.182)
It’s a pleasure, Jess. Thank you for the invitation.
Jess (00:34.856)
I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. I know you’re such a wealth of knowledge in quite a few different arenas. So we’ll see where the conversation takes us. But a really great place of course to start is if you could just tell us a bit about yourself and your background and what’s led you to do the work you do today.
Sophie Scott (00:55.502)
Thank you. So when I was younger, I either wanted to be a journalist or a psychologist. And I basically spent the last 25 years being a journalist. And now I moved more into being the mental wellbeing space. So I was a health reporter for quite a long time, covering health issues. And now I’ve moved into studying positive psychology and giving talks, workplace talks on wellbeing.
and really empowering people to really thrive. The idea with positive psychology is that you focus on what’s going well rather than what’s not going well and to move people, you know, so they’re not just feeling okay, but you’re feeling better than okay. You’re not just sort of getting through the day, but actually really flourishing and thriving. And so I’ve always had that dual interest of journalism and wellbeing and I was able to do one for a long time and now I’m…
fully immersed in the wellbeing and the science of wellbeing and helping people feel their best every day. It’s very similar to what you do with your clients, but I’m, I come at it from a sort of mindset perspective, which is really so important when you wanna change your habits and things like that.
Jess (02:13.928)
100 % it really is that body mind connection and you can’t have the one without the other. And as soon as we connected about 12 months ago now, we were speaking at the PWC event and I attended your future of health workshop and I just was fascinated by the topic, the research, you were obviously so thorough and getting to know you and your incredible background, which.
You’re an award -winning journalist. We need to call that out. You were awarded with an Order of Australia Medal earlier this year. So congratulations again on that. But that evolution and the starting in the journalism and moving more into the research and the speaking and becoming an author, was that an evolution of yourself professionally? Was there a personal component to that as well?
Sophie Scott (02:53.678)
Thank you.
Sophie Scott (03:10.286)
So it was a bit of both. Like I loved being a journalist and I loved being a health journalist in particular so I could get to meet the most amazing scientists and the most amazing patients. And it was a real privilege to be able to engage with people that you would never normally have the opportunity to meet. Like literally like the best scientists from all around the world. And also the patients that I met as well who were really so generous in sharing their stories with me. So I loved that career and I wouldn’t.
have changed it, you know, anything in that respect. But I guess I got to the point where I thought, you know, what else do I feel like I want to achieve? And I really wanted to, you know, one of the downsides of journalism in some respects is that it does focus on the negative, it does focus on what’s not going well. Whereas I wanted to focus on things that were going well and helping people from an evidence based point of view to feel
better every day. And I also really just started sharing a lot of stuff on social media about anxiety and burnout and things like that. And I just got this huge response from people. And so I was like, really.
thinking there’s a huge interest in what I’m interested in. And I think I could be of use and value by focusing on this and making this the next thing that I do. And I think it’s also good to always think about how we are evolving and what is coming next. You know, as well as focusing on what we’re doing now, but not being afraid of moving into that next space and that next iteration of yourself. And so I’ve written a lot about embracing change because…
because I think our natural instinct is to just stay where we are and do the same things, but we really grow when we do learn to embrace newer versions of ourselves. And that’s what I’ve been doing the last sort of, definitely the last 12 months is a newer, different version of the person I used to be.
Jess (05:10.728)
I love that and I know that you’ve shared, because I obviously know you personally, but I have seen you share it through your very informative and amazing LinkedIn posts and Instagram and of course YouTube, but I know you yourself had a personal experience with burnout and I’m interested to know, did that prompt your interest in…
talking about it further or did you start talking about it because you started to learn about it and then retrospectively think, my goodness, this is something I’ve experienced.
Sophie Scott (05:45.038)
Well, look, I was always interested in, you know, the science of emotional wellbeing and I had written a book on happiness already, but it was only when a professor friend of mine was writing a book on burnout and he rang me and said, look, I’m looking for someone I can talk to who’s been through burnout and these are all the symptoms. And when he went through the symptoms, I’m like, my God, that’s exactly what I’m feeling. And I was, it was at the same time I was sort of seeking.
you know, help for all these different symptoms of like exhaustion and just not really feeling myself. And so it was like once it was like a light bulb moment though. I was like, wow, this is really what I’m going through. And so then I started writing about it a lot more because the symptoms of burnout, the physical and emotional exhaustion, the feeling of being disillusioned and not being able to do your job as well as you’ve been able to do it. The cognitive dysfunction that comes with it, they’re very specific symptoms. And so,
Sometimes when I write a piece and I put all those symptoms down, people are like, wow, that’s exactly how I’m feeling. And that’s the first time that they’ve been able to connect the dots. And so I feel like it’s an important thing to be talking about what it is, how to prevent it. If you are in that space, how to recover from it.
And the way that I got over it was really just focusing on that very much that mind body approach. You know, you couldn’t really just talk your way out of burnout. You can’t really think your way out of burnout because you have so many physical symptoms. So you really need to think about what am I doing physically in my body and what can I do to sort of build up those reserves again to start feeling like your old self again. And it does take a big, big change though. It’s very hard to sort of keep the…
status quo and get out of burnout. The research shows if you’re checking emails at six in the morning and 10 o ‘clock at night, it’s very difficult to recover from burnout if you’re really having those very long work hours and not having adequate time to really rest and recuperate.
Jess (07:49.672)
And it’s one of those things as well, you can’t necessarily just put a timeline on it. And I know so many people who have experienced, whether it’s burnout or other illness, and I’m talking even about myself here, we put a timeline on it. I’m gonna take two days off and I’ll be fine, but doesn’t work like that.
Sophie Scott (08:06.314)
And that just adds more pressure. It just adds more pressure to your body to go, well, I’ve got to feel better in two days time. I’ve got to feel back to myself by the end of this weekend. And that just puts more stress on your system rather than going, you know what? I’m just going to give myself a little bit of space to take it easy, go back to the basics and think about what is really nurturing and think about embedding those habits that are really going to make you feel.
so much better and seeking support I think just is a big part of it as well. Often if you’re feeling burnt out or unwell you can feel very isolated and so letting people know how you’re feeling you know if you’re feeling burnt out because of a big workload to speak up and say you know this is not sustainable this workload and and not feeling like feeling like you have to just manage it all yourself because then that can that makes you feel even worse.
Jess (09:00.552)
And with regards to your own personal experience, did you have to take time off work? Did you have to fully kind of take time away and focus on yourself to rest and restore? Or were you able to peel back the layers and put boundaries in place and undertake that process as well?
Sophie Scott (09:21.998)
It was a little bit of both. It was definitely putting better boundaries in place over my time and my energy and my focus. But I also did start to have Fridays off just as a way of, so not working five days a week. But I really think it was more the day -to -day stuff. It was thinking about, rather than waking up and just jumping on my phone and starting to go through new sites and see what the stories of the day were and start, you know, that busy mind going from the first thing in the morning. It was really about embedding.
those practices like you know meditation and movement and you know I’ve written about meditation in my books about how all the research and how useful it is but I wasn’t actually doing it myself.
And it was only through burnout that I was like, I actually have to start doing this to start understanding how to down regulate my nervous system, to get me out of that fight or flight mode. And the only way that really you can do it the best way is through breathing and meditation and doing it on a regular basis. So you’re building the neural pathways and your body understands how to feel relaxed. And you can’t just think your way out of it. You can’t just talk your way out of it. Like even though you might like to, you’ve really got to take that mind body approach. So.
I was really consistent with my habits and I think that’s what really made a difference. Consistent with boundaries and consistent with habits. And I still commit to those habits every single day. Doing meditation, getting some movement, taking breaks, making time for connection.
all those things that you know when you get busy they’re the first things to go but these are the things that allow you to be you know perform at a high level allow you to really you know flourish and and be the best version of yourself so these are the things that need to be the non -negotiables rather than the first thing to go off your list.
Jess (11:12.008)
I’m so glad you mentioned the phone first thing in the morning because we all, most of us know in some way, shape or form, it’s not good for us. But I don’t often necessarily hear people talking about it from that, that cognitive load or that burn outside of things. I personally know with myself and I’m pretty good. I’m very good these days. Very rarely am I touching my phone within the first hour or looking at anything other than just, you know, getting up and going for a walk or to the gym or whatever I’ll do. But…
I definitely, because I am now aware, if I’ve touched my phone in terms of looking at messages or socials or emails or anything, I know within myself that day my focus is a little bit, it’s not as good as what it would typically be. And then as you said, if we just think about if the very first thing we’re doing is looking at our screens, we’re looking at negative information, that is going to just shape our day. And then when we do that time and time again, plus being pushed and pulled in all the directions,
Sophie Scott (12:07.31)
He can really put you in that.
Sophie Scott (12:12.75)
Exactly and it can really put you in a, you know, your focus can be off and put you in a negative mood. And the thing is like you think about that time of the morning in particular, often that can be the only time of the day that’s really yours.
to do, you know, with what you want before everyone else starts to put demands on you, whether it’s your clients or your work or family or whatever else. So often that little window in the morning is the only time that you have time for you. So why are you giving it up for, you know, Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever? And I think often we have this FOMO like, I better get on and find out what’s happening. You know, the world will be there when you’ve been, but that time of the morning, you need to carve it out for yourself and just make it your
time and make it and then you start to really appreciate that time as a way of you know giving yourself it’s like giving yourself a gift first thing in the morning and just say this is going to be my time and you know I’m going to do that and then I’ll start you know dealing with everyone else’s needs in the next hour or so but for this little bit of time it’s going to be about me and I think if you don’t set those boundaries
then you can really end up where I was, which is in that burnout state where when I was feeling really burnt out, you can’t switch off. And even when you’re on holidays, you can’t switch off. You’re always thinking about work. You’re always like, just go, go, go. And the body’s just not designed to be like that. And the brain’s not designed to be like that. And after a while, your body…
just says enough already, you know, I’ve had enough. I need to have a break. So if you don’t make time for regular breaks, then your body will just go, okay, I’ve had enough. And so now I sort of learned it the hard way. And that’s why I like talking to people about preventing burnout so you don’t end up feeling like that.
Jess (14:03.944)
And you know, I’m sure you’ve seen the stats. I see people posting about this quite regularly that particularly with women statistics with burnout, we’re not getting better. We’re actually getting worse. More people are reporting burnout. So even though burnout is now a term most people are familiar with, we know a lot more about it than I’m not even sure. Maybe five years ago, I feel like it wasn’t really something getting spoken about. Definitely not 10, but maybe even five. Yet we’re still not.
putting the actions into place. So if you maybe have one or two places for people to start, and I know that you did a TEDx talk last year on how to heal yourself from burnout, but if people are listening to this and they’re just thinking, my gosh, there’s just so many behaviors I want to change and that overwhelm on where to begin, if you were to just to say one or two places to start, what would those top two places be?
Sophie Scott (15:02.574)
Well, I think when you’re feeling burnt out, you do feel overwhelmed. And so the last thing you want is a whole lot of other things to start doing. So I think the thing to think about is putting some good, you know, some good barriers around your time and your energy and your focus as much as you can. And often we…
think we don’t have as much control over our time and energy and focus. But if you actually look at it, then you can go, okay, well, I can carve out 10 minutes here and 10 minutes there to do things that are gonna be more nourishing. I would say the number one thing is to seek support so you don’t feel so aligned and isolated. And then the second thing is to recognize that…
Think about where is the pressure coming from to be either working a lot, is it coming externally from people, you know, your bosses, or is it internal? Sometimes, you know, we can be our own worst enemies and we’re like, I’ve got to keep working, I’ve got to keep going. So I think first of all, thinking about is it that external pressure or is it that sense of perfectionism or your fear of failure? So identifying that can be really important as well.
And then just think about those nurturing practices that are going to help your nervous system. So, you know, I was doing when I was recovering from burnout, doing things like Tai Chi and really relaxing yoga and.
you know, not doing anything that was going to be more stressful for your nervous system. So building in those practices that are going to make you feel really good and moving your body in a way that feels good for you. So mindful movement. If you can start there and then little by little, you’ll start to feel better and also recognize don’t expect that necessarily you’ll feel better in a week or two. It can take a while. It might’ve taken you, you know, months or years that you got you into the state of burnout.
Sophie Scott (16:52.56)
so it might take a little while to get out of that state as well.
Jess (16:56.808)
I think that’s such an important message and again, something I can definitely relate to. And I think looking back, it was only retrospectively going, okay, I think probably for the last 10 years of working in professional sport and you know, it’s interesting, I think roles like, or arenas, media, journalism and professional sport, they’re not necessarily the standard jobs or standard roles and.
probably the type of people it attracts and it’s quite a competitive environment. So, not saying it’s just those alone, it can just be any probably job in the corporate world these days. Businesses might be a little bit stretched, redundancies might’ve happened, you might just have been expected to take on more work and all of a sudden that’s become the norm. Or as we were talking about before we got on, being a business owner, it’s even…
Sophie Scott (17:48.91)
So true.
Jess (17:53.8)
putting boundaries in place on when you work and when you respond to things doesn’t necessarily mean you switch your brain off and you stop thinking about the work that you’re doing or projects or clients or anything like that. So, you know, really, whoever you are, there’s something in there, whether it’s a wind down routine or whether it’s a brain break in the afternoon or time in nature or herbal tea rather than a mid afternoon coffee.
They really use something in there for each person.
Sophie Scott (18:28.718)
Yeah, exactly. And I think often…
High performers in particular, entrepreneurs and high performers are actually at really high risk of burnout and people that really love the work that they do because you put so much of yourself into it, but you don’t live any time for anything else. And one of the protective factors that they’ve found from the research when it comes to burnout is that having an identity outside your work is really good, a really good protective factor against burnout. So rather than just seeing your whole identity tied up with, well, this is what
what I do. I’m you know I’m a I’m a doctor or I’m a CEO and but actually doing things where you know people don’t know that you’re a CEO you know there’s been there was good examples of you know surgeons who would go like salsa dancing during the week or on the weekend and like they don’t know the people in the class don’t realize who they’re dancing with that they’re dancing with someone who’s an you know an amazing doctor but
So having that identity outside your work so that you don’t put everything into that one domain of your life and then spreading it around a little bit so that you can switch off. You can switch off that really busy brain and just be, you know, just be and enjoy yourself. And that’s something that, you know, I think a lot of people learn at the hard way. But if you love your job and you love what you do,
you need to be even more cautious because you know…
Sophie Scott (19:58.446)
having those times where you’re not thinking about work, where you’re not just like go, go, go. You know, we know from neuroscience, when you switch off and let your mind wander, different parts of the brain come together. This thing called the default mode network. So different parts of your brain start working together to be more creative, you know, to be, to problem solve. And so we actually perform better when we’re not just like focused all the time, you know, like, I don’t know you, but I always have great ideas with, if I go for a walk or.
or if I’m, you know, when I have a shower, I’ll think, I’ll think of something that I haven’t thought of before. And that’s, you know, you’re less likely to come up with solutions to problems when you’re just like laser focused on trying to work on something. You’re better off to just take a break and then the solution will come to you. So I love finding out that sort of information and sharing that with people as well.
Jess (20:49.576)
And I think for some people, and not that I want it to be permission, but for some people it nearly is. I think it is they need that level of permission to say it’s okay because when you are a really motivated and driven person, it’s really easy for you to just think that you need to do more, but it is often really about you doing less or learning to do that. And even if you are that way inclined.
doing less, spending time in nature, having relaxation practices, down regulating your nervous system, that will actually reward you. And even if you’re efficient, you’ll probably be more productive. I just wanted to ask, sorry to go.
Sophie Scott (21:34.094)
Yeah, and I love when you put on your social media about taking brain breaks. I really love that idea. I think from a cognitive point of view, we think that we can just keep going and going, but we know that taking those breaks is good for your body, but it’s really good for your brain as well. And so I often will see your Instagram story about taking your brain break and I’m like, okay, that’s it. That’s my sign to go and have a brain break too.
Jess (22:01.128)
I know it’s not, I’m not saying I made up the term, but it really just, it summarizes exactly what it is. And as I started to get more interested in that and doing more research, there’s a lot of science around it. I’ve touched on it a little bit before, but you may have come across it in a lot of your research, but it’s called your ultradian rhythm, which is this internal micro cycle that.
us humans have, but so do other animals and microorganisms where we have these micro cycles within our day. And for humans, every 90 minutes we can kind of operate at this peak performance from a cognitive standpoint, but then we have a 20 minutes of rest. Now we don’t have to be robots, it doesn’t have to be an exact, but if most people think every 60 to 90 minutes I have…
a five, 10, 15 minute break, I might go make a herbal tea or if I’m in the office, maybe I’ve got somewhere I can go and do some breath work or do a lap around the block or if you’re at home, like for me, I have a shorter one in the morning and then I have a longer one in the afternoon. And that’s just something which I’ve now worked into my routine and my calendar, which previously I would have thought, how can I do that? But.
to your point, it’s about boundaries, prioritizing, and if you’re in a position that you can set your own terms, whether that’s days you meet clients, days you have meetings, you just take a little bit of control over what you do and when, you will start to find the opportunities there.
Sophie Scott (23:36.59)
Exactly and I really love that the 90 minute cycle and the 20 minute sort of time to just you know not do that deep work for more than about 90 minutes and you know all the research shows if you push through those 20 minute you know resets your productivity goes down your errors will go up so you’re not actually
Serving yourself or the people that you work for or your clients whatever by pushing through and just keeping going You’re much better off if you’re thinking about the quality of the work that you do is really what matters and so understanding how the site the science works You do need to just take those little resets And it can it can just be as simple as you know, it’s not about necessarily, you know
clocking off for the full 20 minutes, but it’s just really about thinking about not doing that deep work for more than about 90 minutes at a time. And I think that does, when you understand the science, then you do get that permission to go, okay, I’m actually gonna be better at my job and better at.
you know, helping other people if I do take those little breaks and I do give myself permission to go and like you say, make a make a herbal tea or get outside or do any just do something rather than thinking you’ve just got to push through the whole thing.
Jess (24:54.472)
Exactly, I think that the way I like to call the break is as long as it’s stimulant free. So technology, sugar or caffeine, we don’t want to fill that space with that. But otherwise, whatever is giving you space, whatever is giving your brain the ability just to have a cognitive pause and renewal. I’d love to switch gears a little bit because I know another…
interest area of yours and you’ve written an amazing ebook which will definitely drop the link in the show notes but it’s around high functioning anxiety and how to beat it and I know we were talking before we got on how this became an area of interest and you were sharing it was a topic which every time you would create something on it it would get a lot of engagement and interest so
Sophie Scott (25:45.614)
Jess. So what happened was like I would write about anxiety and I’d write about different, you know, mental wellbeing and different mental health topics. But whenever I write about high functioning anxiety, I would just get flooded with comments like from so many people and whether that was on LinkedIn or Instagram or YouTube. And, and so I thought, look, there’s a real issue here. And
The issue with high functioning anxiety, it’s not like a formal diagnosis, but the way it differentiates from just sort of generalized anxiety disorder is that people who have it can be very high functioning. So from the outside, you would have no idea that they are really feeling this internal sense of.
anxiety and turmoil and I liken it to a bit like a sort of duck or you know going along the water where they’re just sort of swanning along and then their little feet are paddling underneath underneath the water but you have got no idea so and people with high functioning anxiety feel that way they feel like they’ve got this internal sense of turmoil but to the outside world they’re like cool and calm and usually super organized and super high performing.
but internally they feel like, you know, there can be a bit of imposter syndrome thrown in there as well, that they feel like it’s going to all come apart at any moment. And…
And it’s very draining and it’s also very isolating because if someone appears from the outside to have it all together, no one’s going to check in with them and say, how are you going and what’s happening for you and is everything okay? Because from the outside you look completely fine. In fact, often people with high functioning anxiety, they’re the ones that are offering support and help to other people. And so I think, you know, the reason I wrote the book about beating high functioning anxiety was because,
Sophie Scott (27:40.208)
I wanted people to feel like even if you have this you deserve the support as well. You deserve to feel the best and in it I talk about mindfulness, I talk about using mind -body approach, I talk about using breathing, all these different techniques and then also the importance of feeling connected to other people, asking for support, letting people know how you’re feeling.
because you don’t want to feel isolated if you do feel that sense of internal anxiety even if from the outside it’s all going well. You want people to feel like they’re really flourishing and it’s hard to feel flourishing if you’ve got this sort of inner dread and you feel like people don’t really know how challenging it is for you to keep all those balls in the air and so the response to the book’s been amazing. I’ve had…
You know, so many people have purchased it and said it’s been really, really helpful. And, you know, my goal is if I can feel like I’m providing help to people, then it makes it all worthwhile for me.
Jess (28:50.6)
100 % and you know, I think, well, I’m imagining given there’s not necessarily a formal diagnosis, there’s also a bit of a continuum with the symptoms and potentially how common it is. Is there any, I imagine there’s quite a few symptoms, but if people are listening and they’re thinking, this might be me, some of the things you’ve described around, you know, that internal state and that pressure.
I love the duck on the water analogy. It’s so accurate for a lot of people. But yeah, what would be, I guess, some of the hallmark signs and symptoms that someone might be suffering high functioning anxiety?
Sophie Scott (29:32.59)
So I think the main symptoms would be that you get the sort of physical symptoms of anxiety. But the big issue is that there’s almost like two faces of it. And I’ve done some Instagram posts with the two faces. On the one hand, you appear super organized, high functioning, really like you’re nailing.
all the different spectrums of your life. But then internally you feel like, you know, fear of failure, fear of making mistakes, you know, the physical symptoms of anxiety. And so that’s a real disconnect because from the outside it’s like, whoa, she’s just like, got to act together and really going so well. But then internally you actually have this fear of failure, this fear that it’s all going to fall apart, an imposter syndrome, perfectionism.
and that can be very emotionally and physically draining to sort of feel like you have to keep up appearances and that no one’s going to really check in with you and ask you how you’re going because they think you’re going really really well and so I think when people see that they’re like okay that is exactly how I feel and…
actually acknowledging it is actually one of the most important things you can do. Acknowledging that wow that’s what I’ve got. You know a lot of times people with high functioning anxiety will have that really negative self -talk as well. They’ll be very self -critical. They’ll be saying why aren’t you doing this and you know why aren’t you doing more? Why you know…
And it’s almost like enough is never enough, you know, and you know, that, or I’ll be happy when this happens. And then the goalposts just keep moving further and further and further away rather than thinking.
Sophie Scott (31:16.398)
you know what have I got going on for me right now that that I can celebrate and be grateful for rather than just thinking I’ve got to do more and be more and achieve more and so that’s something that a lot of people feel and yeah the book has really the feedback has been really really great and
there’s a whole range of different techniques that I put in the book. So that way I feel that if people can just sort of either cherry pick the ones that really speak to them and start putting those, some of those practices into their daily life, they’ll start to feel, you know, less of those physical signs of anxiety, less…
and they’ll start to feel like they can just really be themselves and be their authentic self and not have to sort of put on this facade that everything’s fantastic when internally it’s not they’re not feeling that great.
Jess (32:08.968)
And is there any in the research, like is there a predisposition for women that tend to have this over men or is it a pretty 50 -50 or do we have that information given it’s a relatively new?
Sophie Scott (32:22.67)
I don’t think we have the information. I mean, we do know that women are more likely to report mental health conditions. They’re more likely to go to their doctors with mental health concerns. And so, you know, you probably extrapolate from that, that you probably would see more women.
with high functioning anxiety. Having said that, I’ve probably had just as many men write about feeling this way and purchase the book as well as I have women. So it’s certainly not something that only women are going through. But we do know that women do tend to report higher rates of mental health concerns. And so they’re also, women are more likely to seek support and do something about it as well, which is a good thing.
So often, you know, often men will sort of struggle in silence and just sort of not feel empowered enough to do something about it. So I always say to people seeking support is a real sign of strength. And it’s a really a thing that we should really encourage. And whether that is support is like going to see a health professional or listening to podcasts that are going to give you good information or reading a book and then taking some action, Jess, because I think that’s something that
You can read all the books in the world, you can listen to all the podcasts, but nothing will change until you start to take the smallest of actions. And that’s something that I’m always reminded with as well, that I love information, I love learning, but it’s taking those small actions and being consistent, that’s what moves the dial in terms of how you feel. And so I always say to people, what’s the smallest action you can take and be consistent?
or what could you do on your worst day? What could you do on your busiest day? That’s where you start.
Jess (34:22.568)
I love that it says so, as we said at the start, there’s so much crossover between the work we do even though it’s that slightly different lenses, but it’s about the habit, it’s about being kind to yourself, it’s about starting with the minimum. Because the other thing I see, and even just interestingly hearing some of the physiological presentations and the hallmarks and the types of people may be more predisposed to.
high functioning anxiety, it’d be really interesting to see that crossover in terms of then the people experiencing burnout because it is often that, as you said, those high performers, as people driven to do more and that internal pressure they place on themselves. I think it’s so interesting to hear all of that intersected, but coming back to what…
Can I sustain? What is going to work for me? As you said, on my busiest day, we often love, we love to set the bar very high. We love to think about best case scenario, but the reality is we’re not gonna have best case scenario every day. So when we’re aiming for that all or nothing, that perfectionistic approach, that is often setting us up for failure. So what is that one or two small things you can do over and over again?
because the beautiful thing about that is you continue to repeat them, you then start to feel better, you then have more space and energy, and that may open up another opportunity for another habit or a behavior that you can start to work on. So…
Sophie Scott (35:59.214)
Exactly, and I love that, I think you’ve spoken about this before, the domino analogy, like thinking about what’s the first domino for you, like what is the first thing you can think about changing.
Jess (36:04.808)
Mm.
Sophie Scott (36:11.31)
And then you’ll start to see other things flow from that. And so for me, the biggest thing that helped me was breathing and meditation and like understanding my nervous system and how to down regulate it. Once I understood that and started doing that on a consistent basis, that was the first domino to fall for me. And then I could think about, okay, let’s move on to movement now. Let’s really embed that and think about getting that as a daily habit. And yeah, and then you do, you see this sort of.
this flywheel effect where, you know, one thing changes and all of a sudden you start to see really significant changes in your wellbeing.
And then that encourages you to keep going as well. You can see improvements, you can see that you feel calmer, you can see that you’re not feeling as stressed out or as anxious as you were before or as burnt out. And so you really understand the benefits of these practices and even the smallest of actions can make a big difference. So don’t think about…
revamping your whole life, but think about those micro habits and the small changes that you’re gonna be able to stick with because that is what will change your life. And that’s what I’ve learned. And now I love just talking to people about that and getting them excited about what small changes they can make.
Jess (37:35.432)
I just love talking through these stuff. It’s such a common sense approach to health and behaviour change because one thing I…
do think about in the information economy that we’re in, which I think is wonderful. And there’s some absolutely amazing people out there putting out incredible content. But for a lot of people, a lot of those protocols or steps can be quite extreme. And when they’re hearing that information and they’re sitting there listening to it and consuming it, but not taking action because it seems so far from what they’re doing, that’s probably.
exacerbating that internal conflict. So having conversations like this where we’re really pairing it back, it’s really about one or two simple things. Breath work could literally be one or two minutes, some box breathing, like four breaths in, hold for four, out for four, hold for four. I’m sure there’s plenty of different.
or tracks or anything that you can listen to as well? Actually that’s probably a great question to ask yourself. Is there somewhere that you like to listen to meditation or some tracks for breath work?
Sophie Scott (38:47.982)
Yeah, so I really love, there’s an app called Insight Timer and it’s the world’s biggest meditation app. And I started listening to that one and then now I’ve got some of my own meditations on there as well that I’ve put out on anxiety and on, there’s a morning one. And so I’d love people if they wanted to, I can, I’ll send you the links for those. But the main thing is finding someone whose voice you really like the sound of.
because you want to feel as relaxed as possible. But also understand that with meditation and breathing, it’s not about having a clear mind and not thinking. It’s just about centering yourself. And if your mind does start to wander, just bring it back again and bring it back again and again. And even if it happens a thousand times, you just bring it back a thousand and one times. And that’s all you need to do. It’s not about…
having no thoughts or it’s just really about being centered and in the moment and giving yourself that little bit of time for yourself.
And so yeah, like I said before, I wrote about the benefits of meditation but never did it. But now I do and now I can see, wow, this actually does really help. And the big thing is with breathing, just making sure that your exhale is longer than your inhale. And that will really help you feel relaxed. If you’re looking for ways of sort of helping your nervous system to be in that more down -regulated state,
That’s the key that having that relaxation response. You’ve got to make sure that exhales longer than the inhale and that will really help and if you do it on a consistent basis, then your body learns to understand. this is what it’s like to feel relaxed. This is what it’s like to feel calm and you switch on the part of the nervous system that you want to switch on and look. It’s not about being calm and relaxed all the time. Your nervous system is designed to sort of.
Sophie Scott (40:45.646)
you know, go up and down as you deal with the stress of life. But it’s having that flexibility or what they call the window of tolerance so that you can.
respond to what’s going on in your life without being reactive and without making everything into a huge drama because you are calmer and more relaxed within yourself. And so that’s been the huge benefit for me, just really being able to understand that and understand that how everything we do has an impact on your brain, your…
nervous system and so you’ve got to build in those practices that are going to be nurturing for you rather than just thinking about go go go all the time because the last thing you want to be is end up feeling exhausted and burnt out then you have no use to anyone and no help to anyone whatsoever including yourself.
Jess (41:38.984)
Exactly, and that can often come from a place of caring so much about the work you do or the people that you’re helping, but at the end of the day, it always comes back to you need to take care of yourself first. And I think when you start a breath work or meditation or yoga, whatever that might be, be okay with feeling quite uncomfortable to begin with, be okay with your mind racing. You need to…
be consistent with the practice for it then to get familiar and for you to then learn how to over time, relax, unwind. And I know for myself, yin yoga is a practice I’ve done for many, many years. And I think back when I started, it probably was a year of being uncomfortable on the mat before I really kind of allowed myself to…
or understand how to down regulate and focus on my breathing. And now it’s for me, it’s one of my number one checkpoints. If I get on the mat and my mind is racing, I know it’s the number one sign. I maybe need to dial up some of those practices. I mean, I have my baseline approach. Like we spoke about what’s the minimum, but that’s a really nice kind of checkpoint for myself, but that took me years to figure that out. And it really is just about starting somewhere. So insight timer, that could be a great place for each of you.
Sophie, we’re getting towards the end of today’s conversation. I’m so thankful for your time and all of the knowledge. It’s been absolutely incredible. The last question I’d like to ask my guests are around their own behaviors. And we’ve probably touched on some of those with you today, but I would love to know what three things, whether that’s practices, rituals, behaviors that help you stay at the top.
Sophie Scott (43:03.054)
Yeah.
Sophie Scott (43:30.35)
So the three things I would say would be the three C’s. So for me, it’s calm, which is breathing and meditation. It’s about connection. It’s about really prioritizing connecting with people that you care about. You know, we know that that is your quality of your relationships is the number one predictor of your physical and emotional wellbeing. So having that sense of connection.
And then the last part would be this last C’s would commit to committing to movement in some way or shape or form whatever that looks like for you. Whether it’s going for a walk or like this morning I went to the gym and did a bar class and had a great time. So those three C’s are the cornerstone for me of well -being and just committing to that every day in small amounts and understanding that
you will actually just feel so much better within yourself and then you can be the person that you want to be for other people once you’ve given yourself those great foundations to work from.
Jess (44:38.088)
I love that and I always love an analogy or a alliteration where we can have a framework. I think it just summarizes things really nicely. But if people have listened to today and they’re not following you or not familiar with your work, which would surprise me, that means they may be living under a rock because you share a lot of great content in a lot of great places. But where would the best place be for people to connect with you and follow along?
Sophie Scott (45:07.726)
Yeah, so probably either my YouTube or my Instagram or the website. So the website is sophyscott .com .au and that’s got all the socials. My Instagram is sophyscott and the number two. And I’m also putting out a lot more content these days on YouTube because I think people are looking for sort of more in -depth content from a video point of view. So there’s going to be lots of amazing videos there about the vagus nerve and about the nervous system.
Yeah, if you’re looking for a bit more information, then the YouTube’s got lots of great videos up there already. But I think the main thing is like, take all this knowledge and think about the small actions that you can all put into place. What’s the smallest thing you can do and stick with it. And then you’ll start to see those changes.
Jess (45:57.353)
Fantastic, and thank you so much for jumping on the podcast today, sharing your knowledge. Friends, if you haven’t subscribed already, please make sure you do that. And if you would kindly be happy to leave a rating and review, it means so much. Definitely make sure you head over and check out Sophie’s Instagram. There’s so many amazing infographics on there and definitely subscribe to her YouTube channel.
That’s all for this week. I’ll see you all again next week with some tips and tactics helping you not only reach the top, but sustainably stay there. I’ll see you all then.